Discussion in 'OTC and ACF' started by Redshaggydog, Aug 6, 2006.

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  1. Firstly not sure where this should go so lobbing it in here as its the only place where everyone will see it.

    Question: ACF/CCF who should run them?

    From memories my CCF Captain was ex Regulars, the WO was an through the CCF ranks and did not have a clue. Should the trainers and leaders of this merry band be serving/ex serving only. Perhaps an extention on a long career? Would this ensure that what is taught is correct.

    Do ACT/CCF Instructors get taught what is current and if so by whom?

    Bugger knows but having just read through the ACF posts seems that a good resource of manpower for us may be slightly mucked up.
  2. Generally, going by the ACF manual, what is taught is "correct".
    No, it isn't necessarily what the regular army do, but that's not the point.

    The reason behind teaching, say, a section attack (which is one example of something taught slightly differently to the way the regulars do it) is not so a bunch of 13-18 year-olds can successfully take out an enemy position. They'll never have to do that.

    It's to use that as a vehicle for a host of other skills relevant to the development of the youngsters doing it:
    weapon handling

    It needs to be close enough to the real thing to give it some credibility in the eyes of the youngsters doing it, but that's all. There is usually a fair smattering of ex-regulars in most areas, but they find that they very quickly have to forget quite a lot of what they did in the regs and relearn from a different perspective.
  3. sadly the PC Brigades have a serious concern over Youth Movements affiliated with the Military as western governments don't want to be seen as developing ' child soldiers' -a no-no under international conventions and smacking of ' The Lord's Resistence Army ' and such like.. So kiddie corps can't be too militaristic in their programming.. Hence they are not taught how to mount a FIBUA/OBUA operation against the local chocklit shoppe but are shown survival skills al a " Outward Bound ' , etc..

    at least that's the case in my neck of the woods.. oh that parents sending their young to Army Cadets should ever think that they were actually learning something army-ish, FFS!!
  4. i help out at our local RE ACF & they are taught by the pam

    HOWEVER there are only certain subjects that we can actually teach them properly without being strung up, cnuts.
  5. I'm confused as to what you mean Redshaggydog.

    There are usually two types of ACF/CCF instuctor. You have the detachment/contingent (ACF/CCF respectively) main staff (the people run like day to day business, the adults you see most on your weekly ACF/CCF evenings).

    Then you have the actual Cadet Training Teams (CTTs), who are almost always if not always composed of regular sodliers/officers, these are the guys who run weekends such as APCA weekends, county competitions etc...

    I can only comment on my CCF contingent and my CTT. CCFs, because they are in schools etc..., usually have officers from amongst the teaching staff, so our OC is a retired teacher, who holds the rank of Colonel, then our main instuctor, "the RSM", is an ex-regular RSM. so we have a good mix.

    The CTT is made up of regular soldiers and officers though, from various regiments.

    Then there are the Senior cadets who most of the "in house" teaching etc... (You know the type, trying to teach the young'uns drill when they won't listen to a fcuking word you're saying).

    And I'm really happy with our system. We have a laugh and we get taught quite well, its a great mix of civvy and military.
  6. Panoptes

    Sorry, was on my second bottle of red when I started on here last night.

    Know about CCTs and ACF/CCF Instructors.

    What I was trying to say was could the Army use post regular soldiers (continuance and the like) as ACF/CCF Instructors? This would ensure a commonality of training across the whole of the ACF/CCF. It could also give a good resource of recruits into the Armed Services.

    What I had not taken account of was the PC brigade and now realise that teaching the ACF/CCF too much Military things would stop it.
  7. i think everyone is forgetting that the ACF is no longer 'run' by the MOD as it used to be when it first started... many many moons ago.

    As such should NOT be run by regs. Their input though is very important and its great when they help (like the Cadet Training Teams). Both regs and TA are a very important part of the ACF and I just wish there was a way to show our apreciation more to them but as far as running it goes it should be done to Joe Bloggs who have an interest and are willing to learn and teach the cadets.

    I keep on getting told by my detachment and also COunty that cadets is NOT a military organisation but a Youth Club which Teaches these children that there is more than one path to choose from. (gets them off the street aswell)

    p.s. sorry for the spelling guys - but of a rushed reply :)
  8. BuggerAll

    BuggerAll LE Reviewer Book Reviewer

    Pace what GrenBaby says the ACF is run by the MoD its Charter puts it rather well:

    The Army Cadet Force is a National Voluntary Youth Organisation. It is sponsored by the Army and provides challenging military, adventurous and community activities. It's aim is to inspire young people to achieve success in life with a spirit of service to the Queen, their country and their local community, and to develop in them the qualities required of a good citizen.

    This aim is achieved by:

    Providing progressive cadet training, often of a challenging nature, to foster confidence, self reliance, loyalty and a sense of service to other people.

    Encouraging the development of personal powers of practical leadership and the ability to work successfully as a member of a team.

    Stimulating an interest in the Army, it's achievements, skills and values.

    Advising and preparing those considering a career in the services or with the Reserve Forces.
  9. So what does Maj. Gen. the Duke of Westminster do? Where does all the doctrine come from?
  10. Look, there are advantages with regular soldiers running ACF/CCF dets/cntgs such as more realism, more "army-esq" discipline, not to mention the unique view into the somewhat rose tinted light of soldiering (rose tinted becuase if you gave 13/14 y.o's a view of army life they'd probably die).

    Not to metnion you can question regulars on aspects of soldier that no civvy would know about, they offer careers adivce and some of their anecdotes are funny as f**k, and useful (esp tips on what food to bring).

    For one point "Shaggy" (if I may call you that, becuase I can't be arrsed to type out, "Redshaggydog"all the time :p ) regular postings to ACF/CCF doesn't nescessarily guarrente continuity.

    I, myself, have been taught countless variations on the old PREWAR/PRESAW method (not to mention other aspects) in section battle drills by regulars of differnt regiments (depsite the widely revered cadet bible- the TAM). Guardsmen teach differently and are more expert in somethings and more deficient in others than infanty so regular posting could but, probably won't mean continuity unless there is a particular service arm attached to cadet forces in various parts of the country (which in a way still means lack of continuity and expertise nationwide).

    The cadet forces are "officially" not designed to recuit for the armed forces though I hate this idea of not viewing it as resource, considering the VAST majority of those in a cadet force will go on to do something militarily/public service inclined whether TA, Regular soldiering, Police etc...

    So in summing up: I, personally, think that regular involvement doesn't mean continuity (unless you had a guardsman teaching drill and only drill, and an infanty soldier teaching feildcraft and only feidlcraft (doesn't/won't happen) AND STILL LACK OF CONTINUITY)

    I believe the people in charge should get their heads out of the sand and start realising that the cadet forces are a ready supply of soldiers and to make a voluntary course, or something of the sort to prepare the guys who are interested but not force them. It could save them money in the future from those who drop out cuase they can't hack army life.

    P.S. There may also be a problem with numbers of staff, I myself have been to weekends where the cadets out number the ENTIRE camp staff about 15 to 1 (no joke). Also to weeknds were there is practically a 1:1 ratio of staff to cadet- on that weekend we got to go home a day early becuase there were so few of us :D.
  11. The Army Cadet Force Association now runs the ACF and is incharge of the organisation. The memebers that sit on the committee, if I rememebr correctly from my Initial Assessment Boarding weekend when I first joined is that they are not regs.

    Not sure how the CCF or any of the other cadet organisations are run, just know that the CCF HQ is also Frimley, in Surrey like the ACFs
  12. what is the big deal, Its a youth organisation sponsored by the MOD that is not seen to activley recruit :x
  13. Hello one and All,
    There are some distinct differences between ACF and CCF as I have found out over the past years, I shall try and enlighten you on as many as I can recall at this time of night:

    CCF contingents are run primarily by School teachers, in order for a CCF to exist at least one teacher from the school must be an Instructor. They generally all then have an SSI who is usually an ex service member, they are primarily in charge of the training. I have known the SSI's to have been ACF instructors. CCF adults have minimal training (held at CTC Frimley) where they learn the very basics of the cadet world. The course is basically a drill test and an APWT on the cadet GP rifle. They then have a choice to do an advanced course which is identical to the advanced ACF course although they have different names. During this course they learn about all the paperwork involved within the cadet world with regards to running Field Training Exercises, and the use of Pyro. CCF units are visited regularly by their CTT rep and they proide training at contingent level in the evenings and on weekends. CCF's have the choice of how they run camps, they can run their own or attend a central camp run entirely by CTT. The central camps are held by each brigade and all the CCF have to do is turn up and play. Generally all are commissioned officers except SSI. And CCF is loaded

    The ACF have permanent members of staff manning HQ, Colonel, Deputy, CEO, QM, AO, and a Cadet Adminastrative assistant per company. Everybody else involved is a volunteer, there are a range of backgrounds ex reg, ex ta, ex cadet and joe bloggs off the street. All have to attend the Instructors Training Cadre run by CTT, very basic MoI and APWT on cadet GP. After this there are no compulsory courses unless you wish to be promoted, then you attend two courses at Frimley, second is the same as CCF advanced although ACF call it KGVI. The volunteers run detachments on weekday evenings, they arrange weekends and run the weekends, they plan organise and run their Annual camps. ACF have support from CTT although only get one visit per term and other assistance available on request. ACF do two weeks of Annual as opposed to CCF who generally do one. ACF rely heavily on ex cadets who have left and joined the army to come back and assist on camps. ACF is very poorly funded and this is reflected by the comparisson in quality/quantity of uniforms between ACF and CCF.

    Both ACF and CCF have to abide by the safety regulations laid down in "the red book" and they both have manuals to follow as a guideline, instructors and CTT always try as best they can to update the out of date and teach as close to reality as possible. Cadets now join as young as 12 and so you have to be realistic.

    Yes I think more ex regs should help out at ACF units as their expertise is always appriciated, us mere civvies don't know it all!! However I think ACF instructors are incredible individuals, they work full time and give up spare time to the organisation with very little support.

    Sorry if that was a bit of a rant!! Hope you had the patience to read it!! Hope it was informative to those who care!
  14. When You say apwt on the cadet rifle you mean the same the same as the regs and TA (up to 300m)??
  15. within cadets the APWT is a simple weapon handling safety test, AI's are not required to fire at any point within their career!! It is possible to serve for years without firing, and to be honest my KGVI was the first time I fired since I became an instructor 3 years ago.

    ACF APWT is in a classroom, you get told to carry out a drill you do it!!

    Can't believe you read through all that crap!!