ACF/CCF weapon training of cadets.

Discussion in 'ACF' started by walting_matilda, Aug 23, 2011.

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  1. Dear all,

    I’m probably going to put the cat amongst the pigeons with this question but feel you are all mature enough (well most of you) to answer these two questions:

    1. How long do you think it is reasonable to teach a cadet how to safety fire the cadet GP rifle?

    2. Do you ever think it is acceptable to let cadets teach cadets SAA?

    Your thought welcome………..
  2. The answer to number two is simple - are cadets allowed to go on the SAA instructor course?

    Number one - how long's a piece of string? Some will probably pick it up in a couple of lessons, some will probably still need a grown up standing behind them ready to boot them in the back of the head after six months. I'd have thought three or four hours would be an acceptable average time to teach the basic drills to competence but it's a long time since I did basic now and I don't remember how many lessons we had before we were allowed real bullets.
  3. The answers are based upon my experience as a cadet a few years ago:
    1. Each individual learns at a different pace as well as being heavily dependent on the how competent the instruction is and so you cannot easily specify the time it will take for a cadet to learn the skills and drills to be of a safe standard. If I was really pushed I'd say at the least 6months of detailed, by the book, instruction.

    2. Absolutely! I really do not see why so man AIs have a problem with cadets instructing SAA. I attended my 3 day county led JCIC and my 7 day SCIC run by the regional (regular) CTT which taught me how to instruct safely and competently from the manual (might I remind you this is virtually the same as the AI's course). Now I do not wish to big myself up but my level of instruction was by far greater standard than that of the majority of AIs who I'd met. This was the same with many of the cadets who had been on similiar courses. So I'd argue that so long as a cadet has passed their SCIC (or what ever they may do now), having been instructed by regular or TA SAA instructors, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with them instruct more junior cadets in the skills and drills.
  4. walkyrie

    walkyrie Old-Salt Book Reviewer

    When I was a Cadet....................

    We only used to get limited oppurtunites to shoot. It would normally be on camp, so the day prior to the Range Package would be an intensive course to train up the newbies and get everyone else back up to speed.

    If we did get the oppurtunity to shoot other then on Camp it would normally be the 2 training afternoons prior to the Range would be spent doing SAA, so that's roughly 4 hours? Never had any problems.

    We used to be instructed on SAA and drilled by other cadets, but ultimately only adult instructors took WHTs
  5. When i was an AI it took certain cadets aaaaaaaaaages!!! to grasp SAA. Just really simple things like IA drills took an age.

    Personally as long as a cadet is competent enough and isn't completely stupid then i think it is fine for them to teach SAA.

    However im talking about the A1, which was a pain in the backside. Not sure what the A2 is like, just like an SA80 i suppose.
  6. I am of the firm belief that the concept of "might I remind you this is virtually the same as the AI's course" would never up in any court should something go wrong (ND with death etc).

    Furthermore, one of my concerns is that “cadets” normally teach bad habits (or what a cheeky “reg” taught them “ninja skills” to do). This makes testing so much harder as a reply I have received is “how can you fail me as this is what I have been taught”. Thus, the laborious task of re educating cadets and re-testing, which takes up many hours of my time.

    For example, and cadet told me that by using the combination tool drill bit, he could remove the foresight and using the said drill bit he can push it into the hole inside removing some speck of cordite (which would be seen in the barrel when looking through). The cadet then rammed the combi part through said hole, boring into the barrel. Nice one I thought…………… That won’t affect the weapon at all!
  7. Read the ACF/CCF sylabi... training times for Cadets are in there. Although admittedly det time constraints and the Cadet themselves will affect this time.

    If a Cadet has passed his SCIC (ACF) or MOI Cadre (CCF) then they can instruct SAA. UNDER SUPERVISION OF AN AI. They don't teach how to actually live shoot, only dry training and these awards are only issued by a regular Cadet Training Team.

    Cadets are not permited to carry out WHT either.

    The 'Reg' should have taught them from the PAM 5C, if not then they need pulling up. And as a AI YOU should be supervising the training. You CAN fail the Cadet, if they have been taught wrong then they FAIL. End of. You aren't testing what they have been taught, you are testing if they competant with the weapon. Find out who taught him, who supervised the instructing Cadet and bounce them.

    The Cadet should not be removing the foresight... PAM 5C lays down the cleaning they can do, the rest is for the AI to supervise/do.

    What I would suggest is that YOU as the AI do is this.

    Get out of the office and wander around the drill hall every so often. Sit in on a lesson by a Cadet and assess it. It is what we do in the Regs to ensure TPs are correct. YOU yourself can take a revision period, say after lessons 1, 2 and 3. or similar suitable points. Check what is being taught by the simple expedient of asking the Cadet to demonstrate his skill or knowledge, You could even carry out a 'mock' WHT testing a part of the test only. That way you still have time to correct errors. Or if Cadet Instructor 1 teaches stripping ans assy, ensure Cadet Instructor 2 teaches cleaning, and validates what CI1 taught in the revision period.

    Lots of ways to ensure the correct info is taught.

    Another novel suggestion would be ensure the Cadet Instructor has at least 1 week to square his lesson away, and request a lesson plan. Avoid the usual tactic of 'can you teach x tonight'.

    Prior to the Det allowing someone to teach SAA, ensure they are WHTd. Then you know what they are going to teach.

    Engage with your CTT or TSA, don't treat them like lepers. Could they come in to assist? What about Company? They could do the failing rather than you, if you don't have the minerals.

    PM me, if you want to talk in more depth on ways of achieving the best SAA training for your Cadets.
  8. Answers are always in the book :)

    Never guess or do what you think, the book, the book, the book :)
  9. I remember when I was a cadet taking SAA I made so many retarded mistakes, like constantly cocking the drill round into the chamber without even checking the safetys on during WHTs... and fast forward to the TA its become 2nd nature in no time at all, and that was 7 years ago when I joined, now I'm potentially going to be putting myself through the headache of teaching it in due course... so has any one found themselves wanting to bash their heads against a brick wall because cadets cannot grasps seemingly simple instructions?
  10. Good instructor = good students.
    Bad students = bad instructor.

    Ensure you know yur drills and the rest is EDIP.
  11. The answer to "how long" is " a piece of string". The book lays down the lessons, some absorb it quickly and an astute instructor will increase the pace and content of lessons - others need remedial.

    As for "Instructing" SAA - the line is very simple - Cadets do NOT and cannot "Instruct" but they can REVISE other Cadets in order to parctise their own instructional techniques. A Cadet MUST be initially taught by a qualified person - Reg or TA SAA course ( with the appropriate swap-over to Cadet qual terminology) or the Frimley Park course. Preferably all SAA work should be done by a qualified Adult.

    Your Bn cannot qualify or authorise an Adult, neither can the CTT and absolutely no way is anyone in the CoC signing off on Cadets instructing other Cadets on SAA. If Cadet recruits are being taught their initial SAA by other Cadets - no matter how good - its wrong and when the shit hits the air-con and LAIT examine the training records heads will roll. Paraphrased from a conversation with the SASC Guru and the Chief Instructor at Frimley Park.
  12. I was teaching SAA to other cadets when I was 15, regularly by 16. I don't recall it causing any problems.
  13. I'm sure you were taking lessons and very well - but the official line now is that Cadets cannot Instruct SAA, they can only Revise Cadets who have already been instructed by a properly qualified adult. Even then it is only under supervision of a qualified adult and only in order to practise their own instructional techniques. The reality may well be that the Cadet is actually a superb Instructor and knows the lessons better than the AI and that the AI is supervising three other activities at the same time but the bottom line is - A cadets formal SAA Instruction MUST be delivered by a qualified Instructor.

    Heaven forfend - but any unit thats not doing it that way is in deep do-do and needs to ask for help with qualified Instructors asap. Its basic common sense if you think of it from a Governance and MoD Liability angle - In the event of an accident it'll be hard enough explaining why the sprog had an assault rifle at all let alone why he had been shown how to use it by one of his class-mates.
  14. For sure, I am of course talking about ancient history mid 1980's. Most of today's cadets parents probably hadn't met (or even been born!)

    I don't think you can expect to RELY on a cadet teaching everything correctly from start to finish and I don't suppose we did back then I merely meant to say that a good Cadet NCO SHOULD be capable of conducting such a classroom lesson. Rules and regulations are another matter.
  15. I would like to point out that unless a regular soldier has passed the AASAA course they shouldn't be teaching SAA to anybody at all as they aren't qualified to do so.