Abu Ghraib - Graner Gets 10 Yrs

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by PoisonDwarf, Jan 15, 2005.

?
  1. Too long (someone else's head should roll)

    44.8%
  2. Just Right (yum)

    24.1%
  3. Not long enough (string 'im up)

    31.0%

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. Unlucky, fat boy!!!

    From what I've heard in the news, Charles Graner was the equivalent of a TA Cpl. Surely the Spams have someone else higher than a fat stab NCO running a PoW prison? I smell a rat.

    PD
     
  2. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4176643.stm
    This hyperlink suggests that he was only a Specialist - i.e. a Private soldier.

    But apparently a SSgt has already gone down for 8 yrs. How the hell can a Staffy be there but a TA Private is running the prison torture regime. Me no understandee. :eek:
     
  3. Not saying the responsibility cant go higher up, but the allegations now proved against Graner were that he was the ringleader of a renegade group of prison guards. No suggestion he was "in charge" of the prison.

    He was indeed a reservist, but also a former professional prison guard in civilian life. The fact of being a reservist may have affected the sentence, but basic legal responsibility at any level is no different whether an embodied reservist or regular.

    Remember from ITDs that ALL individuals have a legal duty not to carry out an order which is clearly illegal. The presence of any higher rank makes no difference to basic guilt or innocence. That defence didnt work at Nuremberg either.
     
  4. News at 10 seems to suggest that nobody higher up has been, or is likely to be, indicted in this case. Yes, the Staffy got 8 years, but Graner, as the supposed ringleader, gets 10 years.

    Does this not seem to suggest that none of the seniors in charge of AG were actually in charge of AG? Or at least dilligent enough in their duty? Surely he/she/they are guilty of dereliction of duty, or something similar for allowing a Junior Rank to participate (never mind lead) this sort of incident.

    Smells horribly of a serious case of the tail wagging the dog :(
     
  5. Quite agree, Ghost_Rider.

    In another thread I reported claims of responsibility going even higher than the uniformed chain of command, eg the legal guidance imposed by the White House counsel Gonzales, but US arrse members disagreed.

    I'm guessing a lot of the responsibility at officer and senior officer levels was more in the area of dereliction/negligence as you suggest, rather than direct involvement, although somebody must have known what was going on in the night shift. The chain of command for Abu Ghraib seems to have been very ambiguously defined at the time.

    Yes Graner has been set up as the major villain of the piece, but (obviously not having heard the evidence) I find it very hard to accept him as just an honest soldier trying to carry out his orders.
     
  6. Especially when, as you so succinctly described,

    Nobody in the world is going to accept the "dumb squaddie gets jailed for doing his job" routine.

    Not really the same problem, but the results for comparison:

    Lee Cleg - follows (legal at the time) order on gold card, engages the car, get nailed to the wall for 5th round, fired less than 1/10th of a second after the point where he was (apparently) no longer under threat.

    Graner - follows illegal order - no defence. OR
    Graner - disobeys Geneva Convention - no defence. OR
    Graner - gets pissed off with life, has a brain fart, whatever - no defence....
     
  7. Graner had no orders to abuse the Iraqi prisoners. They did so on a lark. PFC England freely gave herself to the soldiers in the group becoming pregnant as a result. Leadership was sorely lacking from the shift commander right on up the line to the brigade commander BG Karpinski. If you havent read the Taguba report it is rather damning. If you have read it already congratulations as it quite long.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/reports/2004/800-mp-bde.htm
     
  8. Thanks tomahawk6.

    I gather Gen Taguba's father was himself an allied Filipino soldier who became a prisoner of the Japanese at the battle of Bataan.
     
  9. From what I have read of this (substantial) report, a lot of people are going to be pi$$ed off! WTF is a Memorandum of Reprimand? Is that an official slap on the wrist?

    I see they want to relieve BG Karpinski of her command. What is she going to do now? Watch TV? Surely they ain't going to let her just sit behind a desk for the rest of her career? So therefore, conversation goes something like this:

    17* American General: "BG Karpinski, I am relieving you of your command"
    BG Karpinski (crying): "What am I going to do now? My life is over"
    General: "Well, we need to find you another job, one that means you never have to command anyone again"
    BG K: "But I am a 1* General. I will always command someone"
    General: "OK, you are now in charge of the tearoom at the Pentagon"

    Watch this space. That is one long list of names who may be relieved of their jobs. Interesting to see where they all end up! :roll:
     
  10. LOL Ghost_Rider

    Just a fact on BG Karpinski, AFAIK she is also a reservist (with previous service) and prior to mobilisation was running some kind of civilian leadership school or similar.
     
  11. There was a bit of of a dust up recently when the SJA [Staff Judge Advocate]
    for the 800th MP Brigade made the promotion list to Colonel it is felt in some quarters that he should have been a bit more active in overseeing the brigade at the prison.
     
  12. In the US, TV mirrors reality. Fact. The 'players' attempt a close re enactment to facts. A sliding scale from Jerry Springer to Judge Judy. The minimum recompense is a Hollywood deal to 'their story'.

    In the UK, the tabloids report what they believe the public want to hear. Fact. (Just ask Morgan) The 'players' bear no resemblance to 'Ultimate Force' whatsoever. If anyone such as Kilroy or Richard and Judy turns up, squaddies run a mile. A sliding scale of GMTV from Lorreine Kelly. A two paragraph article in the 'Grimsby Herald' is over kill. Squaddie feels embarrassed and does yet another tour.

    All I will say is 'Jackie Stallone'. WTF is that all about?? Compared to her, John (pick nose and eat it) McCririck looks stable, normal and fully functional. God Bless the USA etc....

    But even though Graner does a fair stint of pokey, I hear a US soldier who was found guilty of murder against an Iraqi kid gets one year? Fair or just a bag of testicles?

    BTW, not an anti American post, just asking if the slack jawed yokels from across the pond if they can answer the questions without resorting to the usual flag waving, pick up driving cliches that we usually expect. (After all, they usually respond with the kind of responce that would make Belgium look clever, humourous and interesting).
     
  13. Graner had been moved into a clerical appointment in his civilian employment after it was observed that he was unsuitable to be involved in handling prisoners.

    Those responsible of reservist mobilisation, surely have some responsibility for taking up references and performing some due diligence on who they are about to mobilise?

    I'm sure the British Army has some well developed protocols in place to stop this sort of thing happening??

    Yet again, those at the bottom of the chain of command get hammered, whilst those involved in leadership and management get off lightly.

    From the point of view of all the Iraqi "freedom fighters" and their fellow travellers, you did exponentially more damage to the coallition cause, then you ever did to the prisoners who were abused.

    Could this go on record as the PSYOPS own-goal of the new millenium??

    ( and the American ambulance-chasing litagation lawyers have yet to turn up!!....)

    Abu Gharib prison??? Best weapon system the Iraqi's had since the A10!! :)
     
  14. Do you think we can look forward to pictures of the miscreant in a naked pyramid or standing on a crate with a hood on his head and jump leads attached? :twisted:

    He'll be on Jerry Springer in 5 years flogging his ghost-written memoirs!
     
  15. PMSL :lol:

    IMHO she couldn't run a tap! Leadership: If my Sgt's course involved anything about leadership (IIRC it did), then the Yank definition of Leadership must be substantially different from the British. In order to be a Leader, you must have the ability to have your finger on everyone elses pulse, watching where they are going whilst planning what do do once you get there. Maybe civilian leadership involves nothing more that just shouting a bit and letting people do their own thing until it goes horribly wrong, then blaming everyone below you for not keeping you "in the loop"

    Can - open
    Worms - everywhere

    Standby, Standby...