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A400M

Germany purchased 110 C-160s (20 of which were sold to Turkey) and were still operating 80 in 2011. An increase in transport capacity was desireable. 70 new aircraft would have been affordable at the price of the AN-70, but Europe voted against the German suggestion and chose the more expensive A400M. Its rising costs, the financial burden of the German reunification, and the strong and unpredictable influence of the German parliament on military procurement led to the reduction of numbers.


There are no German A400Ms for sale anymore. A second A400M base is to open in 2025 at Lechfeld Air Base.

Very good and sensible first post. Keep that up and you might be asked to leave.
 
There are no German A400Ms for sale anymore. A second A400M base is to open in 2025 at Lechfeld Air Base.


Only because Germany got ZERO interest from anyone for the 13 A400M's it was trying to shift, even at a bargain price.

Order 70, chisel it down to 53, try to sell off 13 leaving just 40, get stiffed by a disinterested market, and have to find an extra 500 million Euro of start up money to do something with the planes it neither needs or wants. They will be very expensive hanger queens.

If someone offers to buy any of those 13, the Luftwaffe have been making overtures to the Czech Republic, Switzerland and other countries, it would have their arm off.
 
Only because Germany got ZERO interest from anyone for the 13 A400M's it was trying to shift, even at a bargain price.

Order 70, chisel it down to 53, try to sell off 13 leaving just 40, get stiffed by a disinterested market, and have to find an extra 500 million Euro of start up money to do something with the planes it neither needs or wants. They will be very expensive hanger queens.

If someone offers to buy any of those 13, the Luftwaffe have been making overtures to the Czech Republic, Switzerland and other countries, it would have their arm off.
Makes you wonder if France and Germany aren't just made for each other. The dodgy b*stards. Who in their right mind would go into joint defence procurements with them after their previous track records.
 
Makes you wonder if France and Germany aren't just made for each other. The dodgy b*stards. Who in their right mind would go into joint defence procurements with them after their previous track records.
No ******
 
An increase in transport capacity was desireable. 70 new aircraft would have been affordable at the price of the AN-70, but Europe voted against the German suggestion and chose the more expensive A400M. Its rising costs, the financial burden of the German reunification, and the strong and unpredictable influence of the German parliament on military procurement led to the reduction of numbers.

True - and Germany has a larger AT fleet than people perhaps appreciate - but there were still doubts that the desired uplift in capability/capacity was such that 73 A400M were required. While there wasn't any doubt that they didn't over-bid by a huge amount, it was still thought implausible that all of them were required.

That meant that there were dark mutterings that the figure was more a negotiating posture than anything which would come to fruition - the expectation that the numbers would be brought down by the parliament was there even before the deal was signed in many quarters. I can't think of anyone I met in the RAF AT force around 2001-03 who thought that the Germans would ever be able to make use of a force 70 strong. 60, possibly, 50-55 (which is what they initially ended up with) was credible. The sense was that they'd overbid, knowing that their final buy would be some 15-20 below the original requirement, but by then, all the industrial agreements would've been signed...

The An-70 was another of Volker Ruhe's great ideas, of course.
 
True - and Germany has a larger AT fleet than people perhaps appreciate - but there were still doubts that the desired uplift in capability/capacity was such that 73 A400M were required. While there wasn't any doubt that they didn't over-bid by a huge amount, it was still thought implausible that all of them were required.

That meant that there were dark mutterings that the figure was more a negotiating posture than anything which would come to fruition - the expectation that the numbers would be brought down by the parliament was there even before the deal was signed in many quarters. I can't think of anyone I met in the RAF AT force around 2001-03 who thought that the Germans would ever be able to make use of a force 70 strong. 60, possibly, 50-55 (which is what they initially ended up with) was credible. The sense was that they'd overbid, knowing that their final buy would be some 15-20 below the original requirement, but by then, all the industrial agreements would've been signed...

The An-70 was another of Volker Ruhe's great ideas, of course.

unlike the Germans, the UK, that has global commitments, and fights wars on the global stage, needed just 25.
70 was fantasy air fleets, even the 40 they hoped to end up with would still have left them with vastly more airlift than they can ever possibly need.
 
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Yes, agreed - Don't forget, though, that this was measured against our requirement which projected the following:

25 X C-130J
25 x FLA/A400M
4 x 'C-17 or their equivalent'
20-24 x FSTA (yes, it was that many to start with...)

We also, unlike the Germans, saw a considerable role for sea lift; the overall effect, I'd suggest, was that we were aiming at approximately 80 transport aircraft, plus sea lift (and chartered aircraft) to deliver what we wanted.

The Germans had visions of lots of peacekeeping support and humanitarian ops, so 50 or thereabouts airframes wasn't an unreasonable match to their ambitions for (supposedly) the next 25-30 years; the numbers weren't dissimilar to the Transall (which it was to replace on an almost 1 on 1 basis); the point, of course, was this would be the equivalent of replacing the RAF's C-130s on a near 1:1 basis using the C-17 (with 50 C-17s perhaps providing rather more capability that was actually required)

As well as workshare, it's probably worth pondering whether there was a desire to have a dominant role in the then-recently formed EADS by placing the largest order for the first military type...
 
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C-295 seems a better match to the Transall.
They're tiny - not that different to an An-26... or even a Chinook. Transalls are quite roomy. A C-27 would be a better match. I'm quite baffled as to why the Spartan isn't more widely used. The J is a significantly better kite than the G222. It's the logical C160 replacement.
 
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They're tiny - not that different to an An-26... or even a Chinook. Transalls are quite roomy. A C-27 would be a better match. I'm quite baffled as to why the Spartan isn't more widely used. The J is a significantly better kite than the G222. It's the logical C160 replacement.
Canada evaluated the C-27 for SAR work. They apparently have quite high operating costs for a plane of that size.
 
Canada evaluated the C-27 for SAR work. They apparently have quite high operating costs for a plane of that size.

It's got twice the power of a C295 and a larger, heavier, airframe so I'd expect fuel consumption to be greater per flying hour.
The Australians decided that it was a penalty worth paying for the capabilities it offered in tactical airlift, which admittedly is quite different to SAR.
 
They're tiny - not that different to an An-26... or even a Chinook. Transalls are quite roomy. A C-27 would be a better match. I'm quite baffled as to why the Spartan isn't more widely used. The J is a significantly better kite than the G222. It's the logical C160 replacement.
Tyne G222 ( for Libya in the Gaddafi era) were interesting.
 
They're tiny - not that different to an An-26... or even a Chinook. Transalls are quite roomy. A C-27 would be a better match. I'm quite baffled as to why the Spartan isn't more widely used. The J is a significantly better kite than the G222. It's the logical C160 replacement.

C-295, can't find any figures for cabin dimensions, but they both seem to carry the same number of pallets, and I can’t see hauling bulky vehicles being high on The Germans requirements.

as regards the C-27, remember it being demonstrated at Farnborough many moons back, seemed a very nifty thing, a sort of Hercules coupe. Didn't it fall foul of politics?
 
C-295, can't find any figures for cabin dimensions, but they both seem to carry the same number of pallets, and I can’t see hauling bulky vehicles being high on The Germans requirements.

as regards the C-27, remember it being demonstrated at Farnborough many moons back, seemed a very nifty thing, a sort of Hercules coupe. Didn't it fall foul of politics?

In the States, yes. The Joint Cargo Aircraft programme and associated fun and games. Originally meant to be over 100 aircraft used by both the USAF (who weren’t that keen) and the Army (to reduce the burden on their CH-47s). Ended up with the Army side of the programme being lost to budget cuts, the order - already reduced - going down to 20-odd, the aircraft being assigned to the ANG, the usual politics over where to base it with the ANG, then the decision to chop it. Alenia then made clear that as the OEM they’d not support the aircraft if the US sold them to recoup the money, so most ended up with the USCG and SOCOM got a few.
 
C-295, can't find any figures for cabin dimensions, but they both seem to carry the same number of pallets, and I can’t see hauling bulky vehicles being high on The Germans requirements.

as regards the C-27, remember it being demonstrated at Farnborough many moons back, seemed a very nifty thing, a sort of Hercules coupe. Didn't it fall foul of politics?

If i recall correctly
The USAF dropped the Aircraft and sought to sell them on and the OEM threw a wobbler and threatened to not support ex ESAF aircraft.

Pretty sure Agusta did similar viz the UK 109s which Argentina hadn't paid for - as i recall the UK had to stump up some cash before there was spares support
 
In the States, yes. The Joint Cargo Aircraft programme and associated fun and games. Originally meant to be over 100 aircraft used by both the USAF (who weren’t that keen) and the Army (to reduce the burden on their CH-47s). Ended up with the Army side of the programme being lost to budget cuts, the order - already reduced - going down to 20-odd, the aircraft being assigned to the ANG, the usual politics over where to base it with the ANG, then the decision to chop it. Alenia then made clear that as the OEM they’d not support the aircraft if the US sold them to recoup the money, so most ended up with the USCG and SOCOM got a few.

the power of ‘Pork’.
see the USAF being forced to buy more C-17’s after it said it had enough, leaving it with more than it needed for the foreseeable future.
 
In the States, yes. The Joint Cargo Aircraft programme and associated fun and games. Originally meant to be over 100 aircraft used by both the USAF (who weren’t that keen) and the Army (to reduce the burden on their CH-47s). Ended up with the Army side of the programme being lost to budget cuts, the order - already reduced - going down to 20-odd, the aircraft being assigned to the ANG, the usual politics over where to base it with the ANG, then the decision to chop it. Alenia then made clear that as the OEM they’d not support the aircraft if the US sold them to recoup the money, so most ended up with the USCG and SOCOM got a few.

Yep, at one point brand new C27s were being flown directly from the factory into long-term storage in the Bone Yard. Ridiculous.
 
The C-27 could be bought for 6 cents per lbs when they were scrapped.

Watched them being broken up at Kabul. All hidden away behind hastily put barriers. Stupid decision and they still ended up with C130's which they use to ferry more commercial stuff around than anything warfighting. As seen when I was at a certain ex-ISAF owned airfield that had transferred over to AAF and we had to move our L100 out of the way to allow an AAF C130 to land (pilot was getting all upset!). Out of the back came a couple of civ 4x4's and about 100 civilians (exaggeration but seemed like it) for EID celebrations or something!
 

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