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A400M

The NH90 has had many issues, not surprisingly a few users have chosen to bin them and Go with the MH60s, the A400 works for us, due to experienced ground crew, aircrew. It’s still not fit for purpose for delivering SF, hence why the RAF will be getting MC130J for that purpose, along with MH47G.

If Tigre was so good, why is the Apache out selling it?

France needs new MPA, Heavy SH, a replacement for the medium transports that @fantassin has alluded too, however I don’t see Airbus as the answer To any of those requirements.

A400 is the last aircraft I'd use for delivering SF. It's tactical in that you can land it on unprepared strips, but its rather big, even for a platoon. It's more a pantechnicon for company sized stuff.
SF Chinooks would probably be a better bet in most cases as you can put then down on a tennis court, not summat you can do with a C130. That said, if you want an LRDG type sweep with landys and jackals , C130/C27 would be good to haul the bulk with.
The Tigre won't outsell the Apache because the US army requirement is probably bigger than the rest of NATO combined. The targeting systems on it are very good according to the Ozzie's. Unfortunately you won't get the Apaches Longbow radar on Tigre which is a pity as it's a cracking bit of kit.
Performance ? Here again the French seem to have got results. There were issues with the engines in Oz, but none with the French or Spanish ( and it's the same ones we use in Merlin ). Is it possibly a batch issue? Dunno.
 
The issue is known and acknowledged but nobody in the FRA POL establishment is too keen on pouring billions of Euros into US coffers while FRA and EU industries are reeling under the effects of the COVID crisis.

Barkhane is very happy with GBR CH-47 support but the Op would not stop if they were to go back to blighty. FRA forces have done without heavy RW for decades and it is unlikely to change soon.

Regarding MPAs, the modernized ATL2 is just entering service so no hurry.

In AFG, it was the Caracal (EC725Mkll), Cougar and Puma.

Personally, I'm very glad that we have been able to assist our French allies and long may it continue. It is vital that both countries maintain a very close security relationship, irrespective of the UK's position vis-a-vis the EU.
 
A400 is the last aircraft I'd use for delivering SF. It's tactical in that you can land it on unprepared strips, but its rather big, even for a platoon. It's more a pantechnicon for company sized stuff.
SF Chinooks would probably be a better bet in most cases as you can put then down on a tennis court, not summat you can do with a C130. That said, if you want an LRDG type sweep with landys and jackals , C130/C27 would be good to haul the bulk with.
The Tigre won't outsell the Apache because the US army requirement is probably bigger than the rest of NATO combined. The targeting systems on it are very good according to the Ozzie's. Unfortunately you won't get the Apaches Longbow radar on Tigre which is a pity as it's a cracking bit of kit.
Performance ? Here again the French seem to have got results. There were issues with the engines in Oz, but none with the French or Spanish ( and it's the same ones we use in Merlin ). Is it possibly a batch issue? Dunno.
I do wonder why the French won’t buy heavy SH, even the most blinkered national would have CH47 in there fleet, unless brainwashed by false nationalis.

@fantassin dismisses the support of the RAF‘s contribution, however word from the aircrew are that they are much valued, often first tasked.
 
The French pioneered a lot of helicopter warfare in Algeria. However, I suspect they looked at the market and decided that medium lift was the way forward, plus up til then it suited the small high mobility units typical of African warfare.
There is an argument that 4 pumas is better that 2 Chinooks because if one Chinook goes u/s that's 50% down, whereas 1puma is 25% down. Very simplistic I know, but it also means more availability for light taskings etc. 4 Vs 2 and all that.
Once you get to the point where "light" troops are slowly getting heavier in their log demands and equipment, then that of course changes things. The French did try heavy lift with the Super Frelon, the biggest helicopter designed in Europe. The design sold to the Saffers and the Chinese - who re-engined it and tweaked various areas.
It wasn't a great success for the French and the cheaper route was the Puma and NH90.
Barkhane is showing the limitations of that, so it will interesting to see if they jump on board the German replacement for their heavies.
 
The French pioneered a lot of helicopter warfare in Algeria. However, I suspect they looked at the market and decided that medium lift was the way forward, plus up til then it suited the small high mobility units typical of African warfare.
There is an argument that 4 pumas is better that 2 Chinooks because if one Chinook goes u/s that's 50% down, whereas 1puma is 25% down. Very simplistic I know, but it also means more availability for light taskings etc. 4 Vs 2 and all that.
Once you get to the point where "light" troops are slowly getting heavier in their log demands and equipment, then that of course changes things. The French did try heavy lift with the Super Frelon, the biggest helicopter designed in Europe. The design sold to the Saffers and the Chinese - who re-engined it and tweaked various areas.
It wasn't a great success for the French and the cheaper route was the Puma and NH90.
Barkhane is showing the limitations of that, so it will interesting to see if they jump on board the German replacement for their heavies.
The German replacement are both USA offerings. CH53K and CH47F.

That is a hill the french would rather die on than buy. Hence why they are on the no sale list of F35.
 
-the development of an A200M by Airbus IOT maximise the commonality of parts, training and maintenance.


I can remember the artists impressions of a compact and stretched A400 back in the day - but at the time AIRBUS thought they’d sell thousands and corner the airlifter market.
NFC now, the whole programme will die when the current orders are finished.
 
The French pioneered a lot of helicopter warfare in Algeria. However, I suspect they looked at the market and decided that medium lift was the way forward, plus up til then it suited the small high mobility units typical of African warfare.
There is an argument that 4 pumas is better that 2 Chinooks because if one Chinook goes u/s that's 50% down, whereas 1puma is 25% down. Very simplistic I know, but it also means more availability for light taskings etc. 4 Vs 2 and all that.
Once you get to the point where "light" troops are slowly getting heavier in their log demands and equipment, then that of course changes things. The French did try heavy lift with the Super Frelon, the biggest helicopter designed in Europe. The design sold to the Saffers and the Chinese - who re-engined it and tweaked various areas.
It wasn't a great success for the French and the cheaper route was the Puma and NH90.
Barkhane is showing the limitations of that, so it will interesting to see if they jump on board the German replacement for their heavies.

The AdA hopes to get CH-47 at some point but it is very far from a done deal.

Before that they will probably get 12-20 H225 to replace the Puma and Super Puma.

You need to understand than spending the taxpayers' money in France or, if impossible, in the EU, beats all the other arguments.

Personally, l am fine with that.
 
(...) The Tigre won't outsell the Apache because the US army requirement is probably bigger than the rest of NATO combined. The targeting systems on it are very good according to the Ozzie's. Unfortunately you won't get the Apaches Longbow radar on Tigre which is a pity as it's a cracking bit of kit.
Performance ? Here again the French seem to have got results. There were issues with the engines in Oz, but none with the French or Spanish ( and it's the same ones we use in Merlin ). Is it possibly a batch issue? Dunno.
The problems the Australians are having with their Tigres have to so with a) they heavily customised it, so it's different from the one everyone else is using, and b) lack of maintenance and spares in Australia, due to penny pinching.
 

Sexton Blake

War Hero
A400 is the last aircraft I'd use for delivering SF. It's tactical in that you can land it on unprepared strips, but its rather big, even for a platoon. It's more a pantechnicon for company sized stuff.
SF Chinooks would probably be a better bet in most cases as you can put then down on a tennis court, not summat you can do with a C130. That said, if you want an LRDG type sweep with landys and jackals , C130/C27 would be good to haul the bulk with.
The Tigre won't outsell the Apache because the US army requirement is probably bigger than the rest of NATO combined. The targeting systems on it are very good according to the Ozzie's. Unfortunately you won't get the Apaches Longbow radar on Tigre which is a pity as it's a cracking bit of kit.
Performance ? Here again the French seem to have got results. There were issues with the engines in Oz, but none with the French or Spanish ( and it's the same ones we use in Merlin ). Is it possibly a batch issue? Dunno.
I respect your view and am not wanting to commence a pi**ing contest but I, on the other hand, would state that an A400M Atlas is the first aircraft I would use for delivering (certain aspects) of SF.

Mindful of OPSEC you cannot fit any, I repeat any, of the size of maritime craft and following troops into RW for airdrops; you need FW for that. Atlas outstrips the C130J for range, height and duration and RW will not do the 'lift' or delivery of the aforementioned.

What some folk on here also forget (or are not aware of) is that the UK C130s (K or J models) did not rock up in the RAF inventory one day all totally capable of delivering SF/PARA cap right from the get go. It took years and years of trials and development to get there. The same goes with Atlas, it needs time to get to the point that it will hopefully prove itself to be a great SF/PARA delivery aircraft.

I standby for incoming reasoned debate.

ETA the highlighted bit.
 
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@Sexton Blake
Ah, The reason why I say it's the last is purely because of size. As a hauler of goods, I'd pick it over C130. Agreed that height, speed and range are better and that it took quite some time to get C130 to a point where RAF were happy to chuck people out of it. Hopefully we'll get our paras going out of both doors soon.
Imho the days of stealthy landings in the middle of nowhere unnoticed are drawing to a close. The proliferation of radios and sat phones mean the oppo can get wind of you quickly and the element of surprise is gone. Appreciate this is but one facet of the SF spectrum as it were. That said, if you want a fast mobile force with associated transport inserted with speed and are willing to forgo some of the stealth , then yes, A400.
ref maritime
 
@Sexton Blake
Ah, The reason why I say it's the last is purely because of size. As a hauler of goods, I'd pick it over C130. Agreed that height, speed and range are better and that it took quite some time to get C130 to a point where RAF were happy to chuck people out of it. Hopefully we'll get our paras going out of both doors soon.
Imho the days of stealthy landings in the middle of nowhere unnoticed are drawing to a close. The proliferation of radios and sat phones mean the oppo can get wind of you quickly and the element of surprise is gone. Appreciate this is but one facet of the SF spectrum as it were. That said, if you want a fast mobile force with associated transport inserted with speed and are willing to forgo some of the stealth , then yes, A400.
ref maritime
Hence why the requirement for MC130J is there, is approved along with MH47G.

The A400 in RAF service is coming on leaps and bounds, availability is impressive.
If you want a sizeable load delivered we have C17.

You see the issue?
 
@Sexton Blake
Ah, The reason why I say it's the last is purely because of size. As a hauler of goods, I'd pick it over C130. Agreed that height, speed and range are better and that it took quite some time to get C130 to a point where RAF were happy to chuck people out of it. Hopefully we'll get our paras going out of both doors soon.
Imho the days of stealthy landings in the middle of nowhere unnoticed are drawing to a close. The proliferation of radios and sat phones mean the oppo can get wind of you quickly and the element of surprise is gone. Appreciate this is but one facet of the SF spectrum as it were. That said, if you want a fast mobile force with associated transport inserted with speed and are willing to forgo some of the stealth , then yes, A400.
ref maritime

I mostly agree for mass (Bn+) jumps in the developed world. For SF and Coy to Bn Op, especially in third world areas, the option is still very useful.
Once the last issues are ironed out, l am confident we will see regular exercises where parachute Coys will be dropped directly from France to DZs in either Africa, Guyana or la Réunion island.
 

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