A400M

Dammit!
20 minutes ago I read this and thought “how long before a particular person pops up to complain about the lack of side door use”?

It would have been much funnier (and believable) if I’d displayed my prescience at the time.
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Yes, I’m well aware the French stages a demonstration of a simultaneous side door drop.

couple of wee points, they dropped the stick at low speed and high altitude - great over a training range, not so clever if people might be shooting at you.
nice try Jaques, but A400M 100% still not cleared for UK forces who jump lower. We’ll need to do our own trials and see if we can get it to work.
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
I really did not think it would carry that many troops . . . unless they were all rushing back in, through a door at the front!! ;) .

I was convinced it was a GIF, and was looking for the “join” . . . . but it does (eventually) come to an end :) .
Over 100 according to this follow up tweet from today, all wearing a minimal rig though

 
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Would you be jumping if people were shooting?
Its my understanding that "hot DZ" is not an ideal to aim for simply because the ground and airspace is contested. The ideal is either quick reinforcement behind friendly lines where you don't have to worry about SAMS, heavy enemy firepower etc or in a place where opposition is limited by accident or design.
So a Kolwezi yes, a Rhine Crossing no.
Looking at height at which the jump was carried out, one has to allow sufficient height for people to practice emergency drills in case anything goes wrong. This an exercise to help in establishing parameters and seeing where you can refine them, no a live, operational get-on-the-ground-pdq.
I have no doubt that the UK will establish the parameters to suit its LLP, and suspect that the trials to establish parameters will be remarkably similar to the French. How timely this will be depends on airframes, aircrew and priorities, and suspect that with everything else going on, its not something we need yesterday.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
\\

Its my understanding that "hot DZ" is not an ideal to aim for simply because the ground and airspace is contested. The ideal is either quick reinforcement behind friendly lines where you don't have to worry about SAMS, heavy enemy firepower etc or in a place where opposition is limited by accident or design.
So a Kolwezi yes, a Rhine Crossing no.
Looking at height at which the jump was carried out, one has to allow sufficient height for people to practice emergency drills in case anything goes wrong. This an exercise to help in establishing parameters and seeing where you can refine them, no a live, operational get-on-the-ground-pdq.
I have no doubt that the UK will establish the parameters to suit its LLP, and suspect that the trials to establish parameters will be remarkably similar to the French. How timely this will be depends on airframes, aircrew and priorities, and suspect that with everything else going on, its not something we need yesterday.
Exactly.
 
If this aircraft was originally designed to have turbofans, surely it would be possible to go back to the drawing board and retrofit them with turbofans instead of those stupid props. Must be a set of design files somewhere...
 
If this aircraft was originally designed to have turbofans, surely it would be possible to go back to the drawing board and retrofit them with turbofans instead of those stupid props. Must be a set of design files somewhere...
there was an insurmountable design issue

the Turboprop is developed from a French core from an engine running out of orders and is all good for France and French jobs.

the Turbofans were OTS from Rolls Royce.
 
If this aircraft was originally designed to have turbofans, surely it would be possible to go back to the drawing board and retrofit them with turbofans instead of those stupid props. Must be a set of design files somewhere...
I dont think it progressed past the pretty picture / concept art stage with fans - I remember the old FLA images - but by the time its been signed up to the pictures are all a large turbo prop.
 
there was an insurmountable design issue

the Turboprop is developed from a French core from an engine running out of orders and is all good for France and French jobs.

the Turbofans were OTS from Rolls Royce.
I don't think that's quite right - the earliest design was a Turboprop, but SNECMA wanted the CFM-56 fitted to the aircraft (they're 50% partners with GE in the CFM consortium). The French then kicked up a fuss, and the artists' impressions started showing a jet.

The customers preferred a turboprop - remember it was meant to be a C-130 and C-160 replacement, which is why Lockheed were in the project right at the start (before walking away after concluding they'd have sold several hundred C-130Js by the time all the politics of the project was sorted out). This then led to a selection competition where two groups, one led by SNECMA and the other BMW/Rolls Royce offered engines; the need for work at SNECMA and using the engine core from their company pushed the selection to the SNECMA design for the reasons you suggest.

Not long afterwards, it became clear that Rolls were required onboard, and the cunning French plan for SNECMA leadership on the engine turned into a German based consortium involving SNECMA (as they then were,) Rolls, MTU aero engines and ITP... It turned out that the SNECMA-based core was too big and heavy and something new was required after all, but SNECMA at least got some work out of it.
 
I don't think that's quite right - the earliest design was a Turboprop, but SNECMA wanted the CFM-56 fitted to the aircraft (they're 50% partners with GE in the CFM consortium). The French then kicked up a fuss, and the artists' impressions started showing a jet.

The customers preferred a turboprop - remember it was meant to be a C-130 and C-160 replacement, which is why Lockheed were in the project right at the start (before walking away after concluding they'd have sold several hundred C-130Js by the time all the politics of the project was sorted out). This then led to a selection competition where two groups, one led by SNECMA and the other BMW/Rolls Royce offered engines; the need for work at SNECMA and using the engine core from their company pushed the selection to the SNECMA design for the reasons you suggest.

Not long afterwards, it became clear that Rolls were required onboard, and the cunning French plan for SNECMA leadership on the engine turned into a German based consortium involving SNECMA (as they then were,) Rolls, MTU aero engines and ITP... It turned out that the SNECMA-based core was too big and heavy and something new was required after all, but SNECMA at least got some work out of it.
french were touting this in the early 90’s

D867D2EB-F54B-45C5-9243-4389A5BD63A7.jpeg


we were still using this graphic in the DERA TLs @ 1995

59E83CB6-D1C7-4DDF-90A0-DD290702DD21.jpeg


my understanding was the French hoped to clean up on a new market for BFO turboprops. At the time, it was the big dream the Future Large Aircraft as it was then was going to be the new C-130 and sell in its thousands, so they pushed aggressively for a turboprop solution even though the general feeling was ‘too big!
There were even heady dreams of a shortened FLA to directly compete with the C-130 and a stretched version version being shown at Farnborough 96.
Silly French!
 
french were touting this in the early 90’s

View attachment 445954

we were still using this graphic in the DERA TLs @ 1995

View attachment 445955

my understanding was the French hoped to clean up on a new market for BFO turboprops. At the time, it was the big dream the Future Large Aircraft as it was then was going to be the new C-130 and sell in its thousands, so they pushed aggressively for a turboprop solution even though the general feeling was ‘too big!
There were even heady dreams of a shortened FLA to directly compete with the C-130 and a stretched version version being shown at Farnborough 96.
Silly French!
Yes, that fits the time-frame.

"We need a turboprop-powered aircraft" - most potential customers plus Lockheed, late 1980s

"This is turning into a right mess. We're leaving and going to sell hundreds more C-130s, just in a new version" - Lockheed, 1989

"Ah, quelle domage - the Americans 'ave left. Now, the aeroplane, it needs to be powered by Le CFM-56. Nothing else will do- one potential customer, early/mid 1990s

"Mmmm.....let's see how this pans out..." All other potential customers, early/mid-1990s.

"Actually, we want a turboprop" - All other potential customers, mid-1990s.

"Damn. How do we find work for SNECMA? Ah-ha! Provide the core of the turboprop. We will team up with someone to provide the engine, stiff them over workshare, promise an engine which is magnifique and defeat perfidious Rolls Royce." - One potential customer, mid-1990s

"Er... you know how we gave you the turboprop contract? Er... the M88 core is too heavy. You'll have to design a new one. And the engine is going to be a Euro-project, since it isn't going to work without 'ze Germans' and Rolls-Royce on board." - All other potential customers, mid-late 1990s.

"Merde!" - One potential customer, mid-late 1990s.

"The ***** French have really stuffed this up over the farting around over the engines" Most potential customers, mid-1990s.

"Er.... er..... ah.... How many did you say you wanted? Really? Realllllly? Tell us the truth, Gerhard..." - The French

"Look, Ein Eichhörnchen!"

Etc, etc.
 
french were touting this in the early 90’s

View attachment 445954

we were still using this graphic in the DERA TLs @ 1995

View attachment 445955

my understanding was the French hoped to clean up on a new market for BFO turboprops. At the time, it was the big dream the Future Large Aircraft as it was then was going to be the new C-130 and sell in its thousands, so they pushed aggressively for a turboprop solution even though the general feeling was ‘too big!
There were even heady dreams of a shortened FLA to directly compete with the C-130 and a stretched version version being shown at Farnborough 96.
Silly French!
That looks so much like the Embrarer C-390...minus two engines.

 

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