A2 Rifle Inspections

#1
Powers at be have decided that the L85A2 / L86A2 need only be inspected annually as opposed to 6 monthly.

Apparently it's reliability and user fault reporting is so good there is no need to inspection so often. Wonder which unit they based that on. Wasn't mine.

Is this a ploy to reduce Armourers further at first line? It'll save alot of work they are alot of affiliated units to inspect.

All the support weapons and instruments still need done 6 monthly. Will be strange inspecting a company of SUSATs but not the Rifles?

Thoughts please.......
 
#3
You're right to don your tin foil hat mate - methinks this is the thin end of the wedge before ALL weapons are subjected to an annual instead of six monthly inspection. The reall y frightening thing will be when the ACF , CCF, and TA units without integral armr support have inspection periodicity extended.
 
#5
The A2 is a very reliable piece of kit AT THE MOMENT, who knows what it will be like in a few years' time when it's been through the mill? The best way to ensure that equipment is up to standard is to carry out regular inspections. As for my tinfoil hat theory, well DD you have more faith in our lords and masters than I. But then what do I know, I'm only an ECI Team Leader.
 
#6
My thinking behind the above comment is that none of the other weapons systems and associated equipments are nearly as reliable as the A2. I have developed an idiot proof reporting system for weapons and soldiers have proved they can still fail to bother to fill the fault forms in. Therefore a fault could potentially go unrectified or discovered for 364 days. Some people might well be of the opinion it’s the users fault. It may well be but in an army where we cant trust our soldiers to look after their own feet..................

You may well be right but I hope for the sake of the trade and operational effectiveness you are wrong. It might work for Cadets and TA but it wont work for Infantry units in their training year or on Ops.

As time passes if the A2 starts to have more and more failures then they will simply have to change back to biannual inspections

Dave
 
#7
The annual inspection has come around because a group of people - users, maintainers, manufacturers and owners sat down and thought about the whole maintenance regime of the equipment.

If the manufacturer says that the bits don't break that often, and the maintainers agree, why bother checking them 6 monthly?
How often does the CHS of a rifle change - not that often I'd wager, so why check it every 6 months?

The 'logic' has also been applied to CVR(T), I was on the study along with the users, maintainers (Armr, VM, Techs, Dvr, Comd etc.) and the manufacturers, also the IPT were thare and we sorted a lot of issues out, the CVR(T) maint is going to be a lot less than it was, both from the 601 and the 532. There was so much crap in there that was just pointless.

This isn't a ploy to reduce REME manpower even further, it's just applying common sense to maintenance, which is long overdue.
 
#8
Does this mean that we'll see an extension to general vehicle servicing?

Or is this to soften the blow on the people who are going to handle WFM?
 
#9
Mmmmmmmmmm, it would make stuff less of a burden to look after in WFM and bothin prepping and retreiving it as well.

I reckon its just a reaction to the bad press the A2 got after Afgan and its just (as usual) taken a feck of a long time to implement. I can see it now, "Why yes Prime Minister, the A2 rifle is such a reliable bit of kit we only inspect it every 12 months......."

Just another way to plublicly shut our collective moaning gobs about stuff, we'll be getting told that the boots are good next.........

(mind you, from what I've seen of it on Ops, Ex and in camp, the A2 actually IS a good bit of kit, so maybe its just a good honest, lets save the boys some work kind of thing?..................)
 
#11
Setting the gas to excessive all the time defeats the object of it. When set at N the idea was that when that hole became fouled and caused gas stoppages you would move it round to E to give it another hole for the gas to go down. When set on E you would have to turn it to N if you had gas stoppages.
I believe only trail gas plugs had a bigger hole at E.
 
#12
The holes are the same size.

I heard about this 12 monthly inspection, last night. Haven't seen anything official on it yet though.

It frees up my time for things like recruiting :roll:
 
#13
Here's another question.

I'm an SAA Instructor.

In the A2 Pamf it says it is an offence to use ANY items from the A1 on the A2, such as mags and cleaning kit.

We have had the A2 for a year now, still using the A1 cleaning kit though with not A2 kit coming in sight.

I'm requested to stop asking akward questions when I ask about it.

Is this ok, or is my QM being lazy and not indenting for the correct kit?
 
#14
I can see it in court now......

"so, soldier 'X', you admitt that just prior to defending yourself in that you shot a crazed madman who was armed to the teeth with various weapons that he obviously inteneded to use on you, you had cleaned your A2 with old A1 scotchbrite?"

"Yes your honour"

"And there we have it, the weapon was illegally cleaned and I offer a case of un-lawfull killing................."

I doubt its that bad, so the cleaning kit isnt the new one? So what? as long as the mags and other bits are the right ones thats all that matters surely, its another of these "in the sprirt of" things.............
 
#15
Well, acording to the pam, the cleaning regiem is different, so the lessons are new, and we have to teach how to use the new pieces etc. And scotch bright is not suposed to be used the same way it was on the A1 etc.

Think more along the lines of after the annual inspection with young solder Y on CO's Mems.

Soldier why was your weapon dirty?

Cos I wasnt givent the correct stuff to clean it with Sur!

Why was it a nice shiny silver colour and not the dark parkerised colour it should be?

Cos i sochbrited the fekker Sur to clean it!

So it will end with soldiers getting in the poo for not being given the correct tools again!!!
 
#16
The cleaning kit is the same for the A2 than it is for the A1, but as it's the British Army its not that simple.

The cleaning kit was modernised to the "Maintenance Roll" in about 1996. this uses different ended brushes which don't fit to the old rod handle. A few new brushes like the gas block brush and the copper "tooth" brush were brought in. Its this Maintenance Roll that should be used on the A2.

The idea was that the new maint roll was to be gradually introduced into service, however when I arrived at my current unit 10 months ago there were 370 old pattern cleaning kits with a spread of new type brushes in them waiting for me. To be honest they were no use to man nor beast making weapon cleaning a bigger nause than it is already.

To cut a long story short I binned them all and demanded new maint rolls, which when using new brushes isn't a bad bit of kit. It's when lads start using bore brushes to clean gas plugs it just doesn't work. The whole kit is a C item so QMs should be renewing brushes regularly.

Scotchbrite is the bain of my life, yes you are allowed to use it still but just don't rub any of the black rustproofing off, it's there to stop the rifle rusting. Just use it with care on the gas plug as there are black bands that should stay on. I was told by the A2 fielding team that if the lads rub off the black on the gas parts just chuck it in the bin a fit a new one, there are thousands in the system.

To close there is also an operational cleaning kit with a piano wire pull through, a spray oil bottle in a gucci little wallet. These are for Iraq only at the minute, you can't demand them in Uk I've tried.
 
#17
I think a lot of this is down to training - I haven't yet had a lesson on the A2, never mind been told how to clean it! But as with most other things, how the feck are we meant to find the time for that - thats what Trg establishments are for right?........

I've got one of the new wallet type kits - nice bit of kit, takes up less room and the kit in it is great - needs to go on general issue soonest as its very good...............
 
#18
Although we do not wish to enter into a debate, we in London thought it might be useful for ARRSE readers if we provided formal clarification of the comments posted above regarding cleaning kit for the A2 weapons. The following has kindly been supplied by HQ SASC:

In response to the comments raised on the ARRSE website regarding the issue of A1 and A2 cleaning/maintenance kits and magazines, please see below the following facts, as opposed to rumours:

Comment

In the A2 Pam it says it is an offence to use ANY items from the A1 on the A2, such as mags and cleaning kit.

Response

The current GSTP (2004) does not state this fact. The earlier version of this publication for the 'Rifle 5.56 mm Modified' did state that component parts and magazines are not interchangeable between A1 and A2 weapon systems.

When a unit is issued the L85A2 rifle/L86A2 LSW, all the 'A1' magazines are withdrawn from the unit by the A2 Fielding Team and are replaced with A2 magazines, issued on a scale of 4 LF magazines per rifle and 12 LF magazines per LSW. Furthermore, a Standing Instruction is issued by the Fielding Team directing that unit armourers should destroy any surplus A1 magazines found once A2 weapon systems are issued. Some TA units may be issued with A2 rifles but retain A1 LSWs. In this instance A1 magazines will be retained for the LSW and it is the units responsibility to ensure that the correct magazines are issued for the weapon variant being used by the soldier.

The L85A1 was initially issued with a Tool Roll. Replacement of the Tool Roll by the "Maintenance Kit" started in approximately 1996.

The current A2 weapon systems CES, dated May 01, specifies that the 'Roll Maintenance Kit Small Arms' forms part of the equipment for the A2 weapons. QM's should, if they already haven't done so, rotate through any remaining Tool Rolls which may have been stockpiled the unit and replace them with Maintenance Kits. It is no longer possible to demand for Tool Rolls as they are obsolete. We are reliably informed that the Maintenance Kits are not in short supply!

Comment

Use of Scotchbrite and the A2 cleaning regime.

Response

Carbon removing pads (Scotchbrite) may be used to remove carbon fouling after firing, they can also be used with oil to remove rust. They are not to be used on the parts of the weapon that are coated with a protective finish as they will remove it.

There is evidence that some soldiers do over-clean the rifle/LSW which often results in damage to the weapon, a reduction in the performance and life of the weapon and components. The current A2 cleaning regime was reviewed in Dec 05 and a simplified version will be included in the next amendment to Infantry Training Volume II, Pamphlet No. 5 - The SA80A2 (5.56mm) System, over the next few months.

Comment

Issue of Operational Cleaning Kits.

Response

These are only available to units deploying on operations in Iraq.
 
#19
MOD_London said:
Use of Scotchbrite and the A2 cleaning regime.

Response

Carbon removing pads (Scotchbrite) may be used to remove carbon fouling after firing, they can also be used with oil to remove rust. They are not to be used on the parts of the weapon that are coated with a protective finish as they will remove it.

There is evidence that some soldiers do over-clean the rifle/LSW which often results in damage to the weapon, a reduction in the performance and life of the weapon and components. The current A2 cleaning regime was reviewed in Dec 05 and a simplified version will be included in the next amendment to Infantry Training Volume II, Pamphlet No. 5 - The SA80A2 (5.56mm) System, over the next few months.

Comment

Issue of Operational Cleaning Kits.

Response

These are only available to units deploying on operations in Iraq.[/i]
MOD_London,

Thanks for the clarification on this topic, I know this is the matter of much debate in my unit and I am sure it is the same accross the forces. If REME Armourers have differing views then what chance the layman?

Could you confirm whether the information you give above will be given the widest possible distribution via Kit magazine and also in Soldier magazine for all those of us who may well never see Pam 5 let alone read and digest it.

Also please advise if posters will (or indeed have) be made available for display in armouries etc to clearly aidentify which parts may or may not be cleaned using the many and various torture implements found in cleaning kits.
 
#20
But theres not realy much more there than in most unit's ECI reports, or am I missing the point?.................
 
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