...a trenchant attack on Islamic culture...

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by Whiskybreath, Mar 26, 2004.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. Not at all like the C of E then?!!

    Couldn't resist it :D :D
  2. No one has ever heard of people hijacking Christianity to justify terrorisim. I thought it was only yanks who came out with this sort of "self righteous, blind to our own faults" crap!

    Perhaps we should consider outlawing all religion as all it seems to create, regardless of the basic tenet of them all, is maiacs.

    Is it just me or do all the major religions condemn murder? Perhaps I've missed the point but that seems incompatible with most of the acts people are willing to comit in the name of their choosen god! :?
  3. Good man! Though apologist appeasers will call for him to be sacked, suspended, chastised......only he has already retired. They'll probably call for his pension to be stopped.

    Robert Kilroy -Silk said the same thing: uproar.
  4. [quote="FLLnurse
    No one has ever heard of people hijacking Christianity to justify terrorisim. I thought it was only yanks who came out with this sort of "self righteous, blind to our own faults" crap!

    You are either a student with nothing better to do than make rabid and ill informed comment or Clare Short. I would suggest that George Carey is far from being blind to the faults in Christianity.

    The article made the lucid point that Islam would seem to have stagnated over the last 500 years and had contributed little to the world as a result. Prevention of reasoned debate (take note) has allowed a situation where the peace loving majority fear to condemn the (minority) terrorists. Though it would seem that where Muslims have roundly condemned terrosism our media does not seem to highlight it.

    Acknowledging that Christianity has carried out its own fair share of atrocities (even in recent times) it is worth noting that in the last 500 years it has become enlightened (with some elements still being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century now) and has largely been a force for good on which modern industrial democracies were built. The Archbishop also makes the (consitent) point that Christian countries allow Muslims to worship freely without fear of persecution whilst the same could not be said of Christians in most Muslim countires.

    As to the woes of religion I suspect that if there was no religion in the world mankind would still find reasons to fight and persecute each other. Overall religion has probably been to the benefit of mankind.

    It is interesting to see on operations how many discover God; and it isn't a transient experience - when your life is directly threatened it tends to put things into perspective.

    Well done Carey its a shame he didn't say these things whilst he was still Archbishop of Canterbury.
  5. George Carey got the MC fighting in WW2 with the Jock Guards...so he must be alright!

    The problem is the West doesn't believe in itself any more - whereas a lot of the Islamic world believes fervently. Paradoxically, Islamic countries almost to the last have corrupt dictatorships that deliver little to theit people, where as the secular west enjoys the fruits of liberal democracy.

    We need to move toward a fusion of the two, with the tolerance and freedom of western governments, but also support for the spirituality and the need for a moral life that Islam, Christianity and Judaism all call for.

    We need visionary leadership again that the world actually rallies to - of the kind that JFK gave when he stated that there was more that united the people of the world than divided them. This needs to be articulated, and the developing, and Islamic world, needs to see us working toward it. This will starve AQ, Hamas etc of the oxygen that feeds them. At the same time, will still need to keep targetting and killing these murderous ba stards before they set themselves off - but there's more than one way to skin a cat. Our laws need us to do what we need to protect ourselves, but our actions must be aimed at the long term goal of removing the support for the terrorist - all old COIN doctrine, but it works.
  6. GB succintly put my friend!

    We in the west are too used to the easy life and sit back waiting for everything to be gifted to us. We have democracy (once TB goes!) and take it for granted. Most Islamic contries are as you say, dictorial in nature and so they fall on religion to support them. So arises fundamentalism!

    Answer for this? Ficked if I know, not on the correct pay scale to contemplate it. :D
  7. msr

    msr LE

    "In the first few centuries of the Islamic era, Islamic theologians sought to meet the challenge this implied, but during the past 500 years critical scholarship has declined, leading to strong resistance to modernity."


    "Dr Carey is trampling on a very sensitive area by referring to the Koran and the traditions of the Prophet."


  8. Thankyou you Percy for your extremely articulate reply. Nice to see that my comments at least sparked some debate.

    You are probably right in saying that overall religion has been of benefit to our society. I believe that it has outlived it's usefulness however that is only my oppinion.

    I believe that the most sensible way to look at any religion is best expressed in a famous (fictonal) children's book when the God character states that anyone doing the right thing in the name of Tash is actually doing it in his name and anyone who does the wrong thing in his name is doing it for Tash. This was demonstrated by a righteous man being admitted to "heaven" despite worshiping the 'wrong' god all his life.

    If there is a God I don't believe he is going to care by what name he was known to you during your lifetime. But surely rather judge you by your actions.

    My point being shouldn't we start on the same process and divorce terrorism from religion they are nothing to do with each other. Terrorism is mutually exclusive with following any major world faiths truely. Let's not allow the terrorists the luxury of associating themselves with religion by not linking the two in the same way that we don't call them soldiers.

    Maybe this wouldn't help but may prevent peaceful muslims from being linked with such crimes.
  9. Unknown_Quantity

    Unknown_Quantity War Hero Moderator

  10. being an athetist i really dont give a monkeys about religion .
    i dont bother god he dosent bother me
    And to the quote you never find an athetist ina fox hole
    I'll start praying when jc turns up with fire support :lol:
  11. No such thing as an aethiest in a foxhole, son.

    Furthermore, we're not the ones equating islam with terrorism - its the terrorists claiming to act in the name of islam. Doesn't make them right. But if we're not getting the message from the Islamic community, they have to say it louder.

    The trouble with the Islamic world is not Islam - its the consecutive dictatorships that have stifled human thought and progress over decades. Too many, suffering through these injustices, have turned to radical Islam because the state gives them no hope of justice. Worse yet, they west has supported these state from a combination of our own energy needs, and the now forgotten exigencies of the Cold War - where the Russians really were a theat, and really did want to convert the world to communism.

    So any attempt to introduce democracy, freedom and justice should be supported. This was as good a reason as any to go to war. Just a shame the govenrment couldn't figure it out themselves.
  13. What is the fuss about?

    He had a pop at western society, eastern society, christian religion and muslem religion. Very much a ballanced speech. Controversial maybe but balanced all the same.

    He said that western society is much more open and tolerant, but standards often slip and their grip on moral standards has been lost to a certain extent. He said that many middle eastern societies are not openly democratic and although great cultures and having once contributed greatly to mathamatics, science and the arts, haven't made any great contribution for a very long time.

    If you are asked to make a speech everyone will be asleep if it's all yes, yes and not telling some home truths just to avoid controversy.

    I find the most worrying aspect about the whole thing is that everyone grabs onto the the parts of the speech that says negative things about Islam and middle eastern culture. The fact that it was a balanced if controversial speech goes to show once again that equality is so very one sided. The PC brigade are going to find out that such onesidedness is going to provide fuel for the far right, as average people consider themselves second class citizens in their own country, unable to do or say what they want, and seeing endless examples of any minority (cultural, religious or even lifestyle) getting put at the front of the queue for everything.

    What everyone wants is not the far right or the loony left, it's equality. And we've been a long way off that for years.
  14. I can't help wondering what all the fuss is about? What did he say that was so controversial? Islam as a religion has been stagnant for the last few hundred years? I didn't notice any compelling evidence against that.

    That the majority of muslims don't condemn terrorists actions in their name vocally enough? An entirely valid point. I well remember the reactions of both C of E and Catholic church following PIRA attacks (Enniskillen etc) - they were neither quiet or excusing of the attacks.

    I agree with plant pilot. The whole fuss has been kicked up by the PC brigade who seem to think that any controversial comment about 'minority groups' is racist in some way. Who are these people though? You don't often hear anyone putting their name to being 'PC'. They seem to be completely blind to the problems they have been making and continue to create in our society. The only criticisms that can be made are of white, christian men or white establishment groups.

    If these people are able to continue to control and influencing our establishment, as they have done and continue to, I feel we are storing up problems for ourselves in the middle future. And they will be big, thorny problems, years in the solving, with great civil unrest. You have been warned.