...a trenchant attack on Islamic culture...

Lord Carey, the former Archbishop of Canterbury, launched a trenchant attack on Islamic culture last night, saying it was authoritarian, inflexible and under-achieving.
Not at all like the C of E then?!!

Couldn't resist it :D :D
We look to them to condemn suicide bombers and terrorists who use Islam as a weapon to destabilise and destroy innocent lives.
No one has ever heard of people hijacking Christianity to justify terrorisim. I thought it was only yanks who came out with this sort of "self righteous, blind to our own faults" crap!

Perhaps we should consider outlawing all religion as all it seems to create, regardless of the basic tenet of them all, is maiacs.

Is it just me or do all the major religions condemn murder? Perhaps I've missed the point but that seems incompatible with most of the acts people are willing to comit in the name of their choosen god! :?
Lord Carey, the former Archbishop of Canterbury, launched a trenchant attack on Islamic culture last night, saying it was authoritarian, inflexible and under-achieving.
Good man! Though apologist appeasers will call for him to be sacked, suspended, chastised......only he has already retired. They'll probably call for his pension to be stopped.

Robert Kilroy -Silk said the same thing: uproar.
No one has ever heard of people hijacking Christianity to justify terrorisim. I thought it was only yanks who came out with this sort of "self righteous, blind to our own faults" crap!

You are either a student with nothing better to do than make rabid and ill informed comment or Clare Short. I would suggest that George Carey is far from being blind to the faults in Christianity.

The article made the lucid point that Islam would seem to have stagnated over the last 500 years and had contributed little to the world as a result. Prevention of reasoned debate (take note) has allowed a situation where the peace loving majority fear to condemn the (minority) terrorists. Though it would seem that where Muslims have roundly condemned terrosism our media does not seem to highlight it.

Acknowledging that Christianity has carried out its own fair share of atrocities (even in recent times) it is worth noting that in the last 500 years it has become enlightened (with some elements still being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century now) and has largely been a force for good on which modern industrial democracies were built. The Archbishop also makes the (consitent) point that Christian countries allow Muslims to worship freely without fear of persecution whilst the same could not be said of Christians in most Muslim countires.

As to the woes of religion I suspect that if there was no religion in the world mankind would still find reasons to fight and persecute each other. Overall religion has probably been to the benefit of mankind.

It is interesting to see on operations how many discover God; and it isn't a transient experience - when your life is directly threatened it tends to put things into perspective.

Well done Carey its a shame he didn't say these things whilst he was still Archbishop of Canterbury.
George Carey got the MC fighting in WW2 with the Jock Guards...so he must be alright!

The problem is the West doesn't believe in itself any more - whereas a lot of the Islamic world believes fervently. Paradoxically, Islamic countries almost to the last have corrupt dictatorships that deliver little to theit people, where as the secular west enjoys the fruits of liberal democracy.

We need to move toward a fusion of the two, with the tolerance and freedom of western governments, but also support for the spirituality and the need for a moral life that Islam, Christianity and Judaism all call for.

We need visionary leadership again that the world actually rallies to - of the kind that JFK gave when he stated that there was more that united the people of the world than divided them. This needs to be articulated, and the developing, and Islamic world, needs to see us working toward it. This will starve AQ, Hamas etc of the oxygen that feeds them. At the same time, will still need to keep targetting and killing these murderous ba stards before they set themselves off - but there's more than one way to skin a cat. Our laws need us to do what we need to protect ourselves, but our actions must be aimed at the long term goal of removing the support for the terrorist - all old COIN doctrine, but it works.
The problem is the West doesn't believe in itself any more - whereas a lot of the Islamic world believes fervently. Paradoxically, Islamic countries almost to the last have corrupt dictatorships that deliver little to theit people, where as the secular west enjoys the fruits of liberal democracy.
GB succintly put my friend!

We in the west are too used to the easy life and sit back waiting for everything to be gifted to us. We have democracy (once TB goes!) and take it for granted. Most Islamic contries are as you say, dictorial in nature and so they fall on religion to support them. So arises fundamentalism!

Answer for this? Ficked if I know, not on the correct pay scale to contemplate it. :D
"In the first few centuries of the Islamic era, Islamic theologians sought to meet the challenge this implied, but during the past 500 years critical scholarship has declined, leading to strong resistance to modernity."


"Dr Carey is trampling on a very sensitive area by referring to the Koran and the traditions of the Prophet."


Thankyou you Percy for your extremely articulate reply. Nice to see that my comments at least sparked some debate.

You are probably right in saying that overall religion has been of benefit to our society. I believe that it has outlived it's usefulness however that is only my oppinion.

I believe that the most sensible way to look at any religion is best expressed in a famous (fictonal) children's book when the God character states that anyone doing the right thing in the name of Tash is actually doing it in his name and anyone who does the wrong thing in his name is doing it for Tash. This was demonstrated by a righteous man being admitted to "heaven" despite worshiping the 'wrong' god all his life.

If there is a God I don't believe he is going to care by what name he was known to you during your lifetime. But surely rather judge you by your actions.

My point being shouldn't we start on the same process and divorce terrorism from religion they are nothing to do with each other. Terrorism is mutually exclusive with following any major world faiths truely. Let's not allow the terrorists the luxury of associating themselves with religion by not linking the two in the same way that we don't call them soldiers.

Maybe this wouldn't help but may prevent peaceful muslims from being linked with such crimes.


War Hero
NEW YORK—Responding to recent events on Earth, God, the omniscient creator-deity worshipped by billions of followers of various faiths for more than 6,000 years, angrily clarified His longtime stance against humans killing each other Monday.
"Look, I don't know, maybe I haven't made myself completely clear, so for the record, here it is again," said the Lord, His divine face betraying visible emotion during a press conference near the site of the fallen Twin Towers. "Somehow, people keep coming up with the idea that I want them to kill their neighbour. Well, I don't. And to be honest, I'm really getting sick and tired of it. Get it straight. Not only do I not want anybody to kill anyone, but I specifically commanded you not to, in really simple terms that anybody ought to be able to understand."
Worshipped by Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike, God said His name has been invoked countless times over the centuries as a reason to kill in what He called "an unending cycle of violence."
"I don't care how holy somebody claims to be," God said. "If a person tells you it's My will that they kill someone, they're wrong. Got it? I don't care what religion you are, or who you think your enemy is, here it is one more time: No killing, in My name or anyone else's, ever again."
The press conference came as a surprise to humankind, as God rarely intervenes in earthly affairs. As a matter of longstanding policy, He has traditionally left the task of interpreting His message and divine will to clerics, rabbis, priests, imams, and Biblical scholars. Theologians and laymen alike have been given the task of pondering His ineffable mysteries, deciding for themselves what to do as a matter of faith. His decision to manifest on the material plane was motivated by the deep sense of shock, outrage, and sorrow He felt over the Sept. 11 violence carried out in His name, and over its dire potential ramifications around the globe.
"I tried to put it in the simplest possible terms for you people, so you'd get it straight, because I thought it was pretty important," said God, called Yahweh and Allah respectively in the Judaic and Muslim traditions. "I guess I figured I'd left no real room for confusion after putting it in a four-word sentence with one-syllable words, on the tablets I gave to Moses. How much more clear can I get?"
"But somehow, it all gets twisted around and, next thing you know, somebody's spouting off some nonsense about, 'God says I have to kill this guy, God wants me to kill that guy, it's God's will,'" God continued. "It's not God's will, all right? News flash: 'God's will' equals 'Don't murder people.'"
Worse yet, many of the worst violators claim that their actions are justified by passages in the Bible, Torah, and Qur'an.
"To be honest, there's some contradictory stuff in there, okay?" God said. "So I can see how it could be pretty misleading. I admit it—My bad. I did My best to inspire them, but a lot of imperfect human agents have misinterpreted My message over the millennia. Frankly, much of the material that got in there is dogmatic, doctrinal bullshit. I turn My head for a second and, suddenly, all this stuff about homosexuality gets into Leviticus, and everybody thinks it's God's will to kill gays. It absolutely drives Me up the wall."
God praised the overwhelming majority of His Muslim followers as "wonderful, pious people," calling the perpetrators of the Sept. 11 attacks rare exceptions.
"This whole medieval concept of the jihad, or holy war, had all but vanished from the Muslim world in, like, the 10th century, and with good reason," God said. "There's no such thing as a holy war, only unholy ones. The vast majority of Muslims in this world reject the murderous actions of these radical extremists, just like the vast majority of Christians in America are pissed off over those two bigots on The 700 Club."
Continued God, "Read the book: 'Allah is kind, Allah is beautiful, Allah is merciful.' It goes on and on that way, page after page. But, no, some assholes have to come along and revive this stupid holy-war crap just to further their own hateful agenda. So now, everybody thinks Muslims are all murderous barbarians. Thanks, Taliban: 1,000 years of pan-Islamic cultural progress down the drain."
God stressed that His remarks were not directed exclusively at Islamic extremists, but rather at anyone whose ideological zealotry overrides his or her ability to comprehend the core message of all world religions.
"I don't care what faith you are, everybody's been making this same mistake since the dawn of time," God said. "The Muslims massacre the Hindus, the Hindus massacre the Muslims. The Buddhists, everybody massacres the Buddhists. The Jews, don't even get me started on the hardline, right-wing, Meir Kahane-loving Israeli nationalists, man. And the Christians? You people believe in a Messiah who says, 'Turn the other cheek,' but you've been killing everybody you can get your hands on since the Crusades."
Growing increasingly wrathful, God continued: "Can't you people see? What are you, morons? There are a ton of different religious traditions out there, and different cultures worship Me in different ways. But the basic message is always the same: Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Shintoism... every religious belief system under the sun, they all say you're supposed to love your neighbors, folks! It's not that hard a concept to grasp."
"Why would you think I'd want anything else? Humans don't need religion or God as an excuse to kill each other—you've been doing that without any help from Me since you were freaking apes!" God said. "The whole point of believing in God is to have a higher standard of behavior. How obvious can you get?"
"I'm talking to all of you, here!" continued God, His voice rising to a shout. "Do you hear Me? I don't want you to kill anybody. I'm against it, across the board. How many times do I have to say it? Don't kill each other anymore—ever! I'm ****ing serious!"
Upon completing His outburst, God fell silent, standing quietly at the podium for several moments. Then, witnesses reported, God's shoulders began to shake, and He wept.
being an athetist i really dont give a monkeys about religion .
i dont bother god he dosent bother me
And to the quote you never find an athetist ina fox hole
I'll start praying when jc turns up with fire support :lol:
No such thing as an aethiest in a foxhole, son.

Furthermore, we're not the ones equating islam with terrorism - its the terrorists claiming to act in the name of islam. Doesn't make them right. But if we're not getting the message from the Islamic community, they have to say it louder.

The trouble with the Islamic world is not Islam - its the consecutive dictatorships that have stifled human thought and progress over decades. Too many, suffering through these injustices, have turned to radical Islam because the state gives them no hope of justice. Worse yet, they west has supported these state from a combination of our own energy needs, and the now forgotten exigencies of the Cold War - where the Russians really were a theat, and really did want to convert the world to communism.

So any attempt to introduce democracy, freedom and justice should be supported. This was as good a reason as any to go to war. Just a shame the govenrment couldn't figure it out themselves.
What is the fuss about?

He had a pop at western society, eastern society, christian religion and muslem religion. Very much a ballanced speech. Controversial maybe but balanced all the same.

He said that western society is much more open and tolerant, but standards often slip and their grip on moral standards has been lost to a certain extent. He said that many middle eastern societies are not openly democratic and although great cultures and having once contributed greatly to mathamatics, science and the arts, haven't made any great contribution for a very long time.

If you are asked to make a speech everyone will be asleep if it's all yes, yes and not telling some home truths just to avoid controversy.

I find the most worrying aspect about the whole thing is that everyone grabs onto the the parts of the speech that says negative things about Islam and middle eastern culture. The fact that it was a balanced if controversial speech goes to show once again that equality is so very one sided. The PC brigade are going to find out that such onesidedness is going to provide fuel for the far right, as average people consider themselves second class citizens in their own country, unable to do or say what they want, and seeing endless examples of any minority (cultural, religious or even lifestyle) getting put at the front of the queue for everything.

What everyone wants is not the far right or the loony left, it's equality. And we've been a long way off that for years.
I can't help wondering what all the fuss is about? What did he say that was so controversial? Islam as a religion has been stagnant for the last few hundred years? I didn't notice any compelling evidence against that.

That the majority of muslims don't condemn terrorists actions in their name vocally enough? An entirely valid point. I well remember the reactions of both C of E and Catholic church following PIRA attacks (Enniskillen etc) - they were neither quiet or excusing of the attacks.

I agree with plant pilot. The whole fuss has been kicked up by the PC brigade who seem to think that any controversial comment about 'minority groups' is racist in some way. Who are these people though? You don't often hear anyone putting their name to being 'PC'. They seem to be completely blind to the problems they have been making and continue to create in our society. The only criticisms that can be made are of white, christian men or white establishment groups.

If these people are able to continue to control and influencing our establishment, as they have done and continue to, I feel we are storing up problems for ourselves in the middle future. And they will be big, thorny problems, years in the solving, with great civil unrest. You have been warned.

Related (slightly) to the Archbishop's comments, can anybody from Derby pls confirm whether they've heard of this dispute re a statue of a boar?
(Appears to be slightly old news, apologies if it's been discussed previously.)

I'm hoping it's some sort of BNP inspired rumour, and that it's not true.
Lord Carey wrote "In the first few centuries of the Islamic era, Islamic theologians sought to meet the challenge this implied, but during the past 500 years critical scholarship has declined, leading to strong resistance to modernity."
I can't see what has happened over 500 years has got much to do with the existance of mankind to date. Only a few hundered years before that and we had the Witchfinder General, critical scholarship or what? Giving the credit to Chritianity and Judeaism does rather overlook the work of the Ancient Greeks

Methinks Lord Carey should be concentrating a bit more about Confilict Resoultion and Reconciliation, rather than playing into the hands of the Islamists?? Perhaps he should be seeking advice from some members of the other house, with some experience in these matters??

Unknown Quantity Understand that God is now slightly more at one with himself, as he has just been offered the lead role in a new hollywood blockbuster covering the life of Jim Carey.
vespa said:
well using the name Pork Pie is bound to wind any muslim posters up :lol:
Now, now Mr Vespa. I'll have you know my name's kosher :D

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