'A tidal wave of low morale'

Auld-Yin

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#2
Watch the government work extremely hard on this issue. Not to do anything about it but to ignore it.

And this is not a anti-Tory rant as this would have been the same reaction if Labour had still be in the driving seat.

One thing that springs to mind, is that if, and I believe it would have been, this had been the same policy for Labour as the Tory's are pushing through now, then the link pin and driving force must be the civil service. So is it the case that we are not being served by the CS and the politicians are purely the face of policy which CS hide behind?
 
#4
I think the best line from the whole piece was the closing one:

"ministers are saying that they have to make cuts across the board" (or words to that effect).

I understand about the state of the deficit, but we can't fight wars "on the cheap" and the benefits packages available to servicemen is essential to the retention of experienced personnel. The government has to realise that while people will put up with a lot for the sake of duty, patience wears thin once families get involved.
 
#5
Watch the government work extremely hard on this issue. Not to do anything about it but to ignore it.

And this is not a anti-Tory rant as this would have been the same reaction if Labour had still be in the driving seat.

One thing that springs to mind, is that if, and I believe it would have been, this had been the same policy for Labour as the Tory's are pushing through now, then the link pin and driving force must be the civil service. So is it the case that we are not being served by the CS and the politicians are purely the face of policy which CS hide behind?
Well, it could be; or the common demominator could be the massive GBFO black hole in the defence budget - caused by several generations of systematic under funding, and consquent salami slicing, as the Armed Forces, and the CS, played "let's rob Peter to pay Paul" - until the collapse.

Be honest Auld-Yin, have you ever known a time in your life when MOD wasn't starved of funds, and when morale wasn't through the floor boards? There'll be Grafitti in Pompei (and Devonport!) moaning about terms and conditions. Congratulations to those who have done it for temporarily attracting the media's attention, I hope something good comes of it.
 
A

ALVIN

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#6
Is there any point in joining H.M Forces today ??

For a government who don't care a flying **** about its military people anymore.
 
#8
I think the best line from the whole piece was the closing one:

"ministers are saying that they have to make cuts across the board. Except when it comes to MP's wages and expenses, the Billions we piss up the wall on Overseas Aid and whatever we're getting screwed out of to stage the fcuking Olympics" (or words to that effect).

I understand about the state of the deficit, but we can't fight wars "on the cheap" and the benefits packages available to servicemen is essential to the retention of experienced personnel. The government has to realise that while people will put up with a lot for the sake of duty, patience wears thin once families get involved.
Fixed that for you. No need to thank me.
 
#9
The Government is correct that, as a nation, we are short of cash but there is a little thing they might like to consider called correct prioritisation of scarce resources.

The two most fundamental responsibilities of the Government are Defence and Law-and-Order.

Logically, therefore, the Armed Forces and Police / Courts / Prisons should be the highest priority for what cash is available.

The losers should be the NHS and the rest of the "Welfare State" - all of which should fall into the "nice to have" category of funding priority.

That the previous Government had its priorities wrong is a given. Sadly the new Government appear to be taking only a very slightly different route towards making the same mistakes.
 
#10
The two most fundamental responsibilities of the Government are Defence and Law-and-Order.
I think the problem lies with what counts as 'defence'? Is launching wars half way across the world on the whim of the USA defence (And for seemingly next to no benefit for Britain and hence the tax payer)?

These cuts have not threatened the defence of Britain (although arguably they have sacrificed the defence of some of our Overseas Territories). They have however threatened our power projection capabilities. But having them in the first place is a bonus- we are an even more irrelavant nation. Our power projection capabilities, even after cuts, are still better then that of China, India or Russia all of which are bigger more important nations then us.

What Britain needs to do is have a very serious reevaluation of our role in the world and what it is we want to achieve over the next few decades as the world becomes more multipolar, and how it is we want to achieve it. The reevaluation of the Armed Forces should follow.

But what our government has instead done is try to maintain our current failing foreign policy while at the same time cutting the abilities of our Armed Forces and generally trying to do things on the cheap. Its absolutely ridiculous.
 
#11
The Government is correct that, as a nation, we are short of cash but there is a little thing they might like to consider called correct prioritisation of scarce resources.

The two most fundamental responsibilities of the Government are Defence and Law-and-Order.

Logically, therefore, the Armed Forces and Police / Courts / Prisons should be the highest priority for what cash is available.

The losers should be the NHS and the rest of the "Welfare State" - all of which should fall into the "nice to have" category of funding priority.

That the previous Government had its priorities wrong is a given. Sadly the new Government appear to be taking only a very slightly different route towards making the same mistakes.
The WS is still in a shocking state, and unfortunately will get worse before any improvements are seen, the NHS is poorly managed in a various amount of sectors & although vast improvements can still be made, ie efficiency savings managers are still dragging their feet,

Even after nearly 12 months in office the 'Coalition' + Logical are still distances apart, getting rid of Mr Clarke would be one improvement, the spineless fatcat,


As for morale, much more work needs to be done, especially for services leavers, the Panorama programme might be interesting viewing in highlighting the issue, however highlighting & 'addressing' the issue's is one thing...
 

dockers

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#12
Auld Yin

I recall that the civil service were not as poor until tinkered with by the Thatcher Government. The formation of the "Senior Civil Service" has, like ACPO, become a self licking lollipop. This has had the effect of protectionism being the first call on any senior civil servant. This attitude then filters down so that the middle management emulate it to appear on side. Thus, the department becomes "not fit for purpose".
 
#13
Auld Yin

I recall that the civil service were not as poor until tinkered with by the Thatcher Government. The formation of the "Senior Civil Service" has, like ACPO, become a self licking lollipop. This has had the effect of protectionism being the first call on any senior civil servant. This attitude then filters down so that the middle management emulate it to appear on side. Thus, the department becomes "not fit for purpose".
I'm struggling to see the connection between low morale in the British Army, and the Civil Service.

Is the allegation based on the fact that the Ministry of Defence is full of people in civillian attire?
 
#14
I'm struggling to see the connection between low morale in the British Army, and the Civil Service.

Is the allegation based on the fact that the Ministry of Defence is full of people in civillian attire?

Stand by for the usual 'We need to sack all the overpaid, lazy CS in MOD' diatribes… you watch, it's coming.
 

dockers

Old-Salt
Book Reviewer
#15
Auld Yin suggested that the civil service was a barrier to reform:

"Watch the government work extremely hard on this issue. Not to do anything about it but to ignore it.

And this is not a anti-Tory rant as this would have been the same reaction if Labour had still be in the driving seat.

One thing that springs to mind, is that if, and I believe it would have been, this had been the same policy for Labour as the Tory's are pushing through now, then the link pin and driving force must be the civil service. So is it the case that we are not being served by the CS and the politicians are purely the face of policy which CS hide behind?"

I was merely adding an observation, supporting the argument that the top of the civil service are part of the problem not the solution. The majority of MoD Civil Servants do a good job.
 
#16
Auld Yin suggested that the civil service was a barrier to reform:

"Watch the government work extremely hard on this issue. Not to do anything about it but to ignore it.

And this is not a anti-Tory rant as this would have been the same reaction if Labour had still be in the driving seat.

One thing that springs to mind, is that if, and I believe it would have been, this had been the same policy for Labour as the Tory's are pushing through now, then the link pin and driving force must be the civil service. So is it the case that we are not being served by the CS and the politicians are purely the face of policy which CS hide behind?"

I was merely adding an observation, supporting the argument that the top of the civil service are part of the problem not the solution. The majority of MoD Civil Servants do a good job.
Perhaps if all Military Staff in the MOD actually wore their Uniform we would see just how many blood sucking CS there are!!
 
#17
-
Auld Yin suggested that the civil service was a barrier to reform:

"Watch the government work extremely hard on this issue. Not to do anything about it but to ignore it.

And this is not a anti-Tory rant as this would have been the same reaction if Labour had still be in the driving seat.

One thing that springs to mind, is that if, and I believe it would have been, this had been the same policy for Labour as the Tory's are pushing through now, then the link pin and driving force must be the civil service. So is it the case that we are not being served by the CS and the politicians are purely the face of policy which CS hide behind?"

I was merely adding an observation, supporting the argument that the top of the civil service are part of the problem not the solution. The majority of MoD Civil Servants do a good job.
But why single out the Civil Service?

Politicians make decisions based on advice given to them by their departments (and the own SpAds), and in the case of the MoD , surely this implies military as well as civillian input.
 
#18
Perhaps if all Military Staff in the MOD actually wore their Uniform we would see just how many blood sucking CS there are!!
We've been through this time and time again - both the reasons for the lack of uniform , hard numbers for military vs CS, and what they actually do (which in most cases is the filing for said military officers).

Ref my bold:

stereotype
n.
1. A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.
 
#19
Is there any point in joining H.M Forces today ??

For a government who don't care a flying **** about its military people anymore.
Its called progressive natural wastage.:) The MOD want to slash the number of troops, without having to many redundancies to pay for. What better way to do this but by making life more difficult for the serving soldier and his family. Why risk life and limb when you are being stretched to the limit.
Like the early 90's there will be a mass exodus leaving for this reason, Redundancies will still go ahead only for the MOD to realise (to late) they are again undermanned. The majority of the experience will be gone and recruitment will go down as young school leavers will only see and hear the Army is making redundancies, so why join?
The concertina effect anyone!
 
#20
"I recall that the civil service were not as poor until tinkered with by the Thatcher Government. "

Off Thread: Ah! The good old days: In the 60's colleagues addressed each other as Mr such-and-such, that talking of matters other than work was cause for rebuke.... and my boss tells a funny story about being responsible for the office coal bucket as a nipper. Responsible for keeping it full, but having to seek an interview for permission to use any of it in winter. So I'm not sure about the Good old days.

Back on Thread: Bit unfair to pop at the poor SCS like that. It's hard work keeping your mini-me empire intact in these trying times. Not many outstations (Adastral/Empress State/Lacon etc etc) you can lord it over as an Exalted Panjandrum nowadays.

Are you serious Outstanding? All Military to wear uniform's? Isn't there something in QR's about getting shit-faced in pubs wearing uniform? If we're going to call names, I've never seen a blood sucking civvy fail to put his hand in his pocket when it is his round. I've often seen senior military sidle off when it's getting close - Yes, Matelots I do especially mean you, do you do a course in this? Does it keep your morale up?
 
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