A Reminder That Not All Muslims Are Like Major Hasan

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by jumpinjarhead, Nov 7, 2009.

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  1. This is but one example that reminds us we have to be careful about overgeneralizing in the wake of the murderous rampage by Major Hasan. It is how people act much more than how they look or what religion they follow that is important.

     
  2. I wish Muhammad Ali was still able to charm the crowds over this issue. He of all people is loved & respected by everyone........& is far to pretty to have ever been a boxer:)
     
  3. "This is but one example that reminds us we have to be careful about overgeneralizing in the wake of the murderous rampage by Major Hasan. It is how people act much more than how they look or what religion they follow that is important."


    This from someone who appears to be intolerant of former N. Vietnamese soldiers because some of them murdered US soldiers. The hypocracy.
     
  4. Perhaps to you. Let me break it down for you so you can better understand it.

    I believe anyone who commits war crimes and anyone in the chain of command who condones such criminality or fails to investigate and prosecute it should in turn be prosecuted. You would think someone with such highly developed abstract reasoning ability would have noted that I very clearly specified it is how one acts (I even underlined it for you) that counts.

    I don't know how you define "act" but to me it would clearly include those NVA who wantonly shot and bayoneted helpless wounded soldiers and those in the chain of command who allowed, encouraged or ignored such crimes. You will also find that such despicable conduct was widespread among NVA and VC forces if you study that conflict and I also saw its aftermath first hand on several occasions.

    I would also apply the same rule equally to US, UK or any other military force.

    Now, tell me again where I have been hypocritical.
     

  5. I shall quote directly from you shall I?

    "While I have no problem with warriors meeting after they are no longer enemies, I cannot forget or forgive the wanton murder by the enemy of wounded US soldiers in that battle and was frankly appalled that the author appeared to have totally forgotten that in playing Kumbaya with his North Vietnamese counterparts."

    Were all N. Vietnamese soldiers doing what you state? Were a majority doing what you state? I very much doubt it, just as much as I doubt that a majority of US soldiers were wantonly killing, maiming and raping innocents, but some of them as we know well, were.
     
  6. As I said in that post and my most recent one, the practices to which I object by the NVA (and VC) were widespread such that my position would be that if an NVA soldier could establish his bona fides as to his personal conduct on the battlefield then I would welcome him as a former enemy worthy of respect. Regrettably, the NVA's doctrine and practice made such civilized behavior the exception rather than the norm.

    For that reason I, and others who have studied that war, can readily say that even with the crimes committed by US forces, of which I have said for years there were too many, one cannot reasonably equate the overall manner in which US forces operated with the rampant criminality of the NVA in terms of the way its forces dealt with noncombatants, whether they were US or RVN hors de combat due to wounds or innocent civilians that were murdered on a horrific scale such as in Hue City during the 1968 Tet Offensive.

    That is why I take it so seriously that any military force be scrupulous in policing itself and where crimes are committed that they be dealt with appropriately. To do otherwise brings the entire military force into disrepute and otherwise contributes to inefficiencies and failures in mission accomplishment. It also can be an important factor in losing the support of the force's own countrymen. Of course this was not a concern of the NVA since their countrymen were themselves subjugated under the totalitarian government of North Vietnam.

    My long study of the Vietnam War and the NVA has not disclosed any record of such scruples but if you can cite any I am more than willing to review my position in light of such new facts. Until then, my position, unambiguously and without any hypocrisy that I can see, stands. I am sure your posts will likewise reflect a similar openness to review your own positions and prejudices when new facts are presented.
     
  7. Basically you are being a hypocryt. On the one hand you are telling us in this thread that not all muslims are like the one who comitted the crime at Fort Hood and I daresay like the ones who have beheaded people and on the other you are telling us that all N. Vietnamese were murderous criminals. To quote you again "that my position would be that if an NVA soldier could establish his bona fides as to his personal conduct on the battlefield then I would welcome him as a former enemy worthy of respect", which I feel is a ridiculous statement and as you take that point, as such, by your reasoning, we could say the same about all US soldiers in Vietnam. You cannot blanket blame a whole army as you are doing or as some have done in the past with regards to the German army in WW2.

    Of course, those soldiers whether N. Vietnamese or US who comitted crimes should be held accountable, but your bitterness suggests that all N. Vietnamese soldiers should be held accountable and of course that is no excuse what so ever for the crimes that some US soldiers or the US as a nation committed as whole against Vietnamese people.

    edited for monginess
     
  8. the_boy_syrup

    the_boy_syrup LE Book Reviewer

    Gents

    Will every thread involving you two desend into this argument ?

    IIRC it started in the Rescorlla thread and then went to a seperate thread in the NAAFI and now were back to it again

    Just so I know to avoid any topics you to are posting in quick succesion to each other

    Ta

    T_B_S
     
  9. This is but another example...

    Be careful about over-generalizing

    I am not racist but this looked a bit avoidable and obvious!

    I am not confident that the US Military is very good at vetting individuals like this in the first place or then spotting the signs of it all going wrong when comments such as 'he was wearing religious garb a lot' or 'he had started to act very strangely' are always trotted out.

    My greater concern however is that these examples went off the rails and given the size of the US Armed Forces how many more do we never find out about and how many are spying/sleepers?
     
  10. I have to say that most Muslims around the world want to get up, get washed, go to work, come home play with the family, watch tv and have generally uneventful lives apart from holidays etc ( experience gained in 3 hot and lovely Muslim countries ) They are, mostly, not fanatics or fundamentalists. However, the crazies are out there and we should deal with them as and when we need to. The Psychiatrist just happened to be a Muslim and thats what people are focussed on and it will no doubt be used as a defence in court. I am more concerned that he was a Psychiatrist and no one picked up on his personality issues, inability to work at his rank etc ( or, they did and didnt act because he was a Muslim...)
     
  11. I agree completely there. Clearly it has to be more of a personal issue. Mind you arrsing about in native garb in a US military base on American soil should have drawn attention to the fact that all was not completely normal or am I mistaken?
     
  12. I agree with snorin on this one.

    Mind you, knowing Psychs as I do through work, it doesn't really come as a surprise that this guy flipped. Some of the people and situations they have to deal with are horrific to say the least.

    However, as you rightly point out, the concern is that even there seem to have been indicators as to the individuals 'behaviour' and statements supposedly made, he wasn't spotted! Intervention is always the best policy...stuff political correctness.
     
  13. I think Rizvi hits the nail on the head there. Although Major Hasan's religion may well have played its part in him not wanting to go to Afghanistan, this was clearly not in the usual mould of 'dieing in a Jihad to go to heaven and get the xx virgins.'

    These types of killings happen all over the world (but seemingly, for whatever reason, quite frequently in America) and the motives are often quite varied. It is my opinion that this incident is every bit as sad as other similar killings, but more intriguing because he was a muslim in the US Forces.

    As an aside, I went to Fort Bragg in the mid 90s shortly after a sergeant there shot up his platoon (I can't remember what his motivation was, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't a muslim)- I don't know if there have been similar cases since then in US bases, but it would not surprise me if there have been.
     
  14. Sadly jumpinjarhead didn't really want to even respond in the thread I started dedicated to the subject we differ on and I did find the starter of this thread hypocritical in starting this thread when he clearly states that all N.Vietnamese are murders etc, and of course I had to comment about that. So I doubt that this will arise its head again, unless the hypocrisy continues.
     
  15. There is a thread specifically for your contentions, and those of people who disagree with you, in the NAAFI bar - as you well know Cabana. Keep it there please.