A re-analysis of the Holocaust by Higgs_bosun

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#1
For the record I am also into holocaust doubting as any proper skeptic worth his salt should be...researching historical accounts for valid evidence and probable truth. So if you really want to know what Zyclon B was used for start a new topic.
I see no reason why the Nazis shouldn't have been able to kill 6 million jews in death camps, quarries or forests. Auschwitz certainly looks large and efficient enough for such a sinister undertaking and that's just one camp of many. Tho this is a rather hot potato and there's a number of laws against Holocaust denial, I'm not sure what the terms are in the UK or on the internet though.
DC, I found by chance that massive lies and propagnda about the holocaust have been uncovered. There are hardly any historians who now take the 'official' records seriously. Not a fun topic and probably not one for ARRSE...
There are no doubts about the horror of concentration camps but the scale and accuracy has been called into question by 'revisionists' seeking nothing more than the truth.
Unfortunately, the "revisionists" have a fairly obvious agenda. And as for "hardly any", I assume that's taken from a survey sample of David Irving. In other words, liars and bigots.
Perhaps you should watch "Shoah" - lots of primary source interviews, from those involved, very explicit, truly depressing...
No, not at all.... A friend of mine, a well known press photographer having recently made a tour of "Death camps" arrived back in UK with more questions than answers. Doubts regarding the true nature and purpose of places like Auschwitz were strengthened by research and evidence. The effects of starvation and disease were the biggest killers and towards the end of the war the Germans could do nothing about it. The 'slave labour' and 'captivity' systems were out of control. Yes extermination was probably the 'final solution' in the minds of leaders but in practice it was an impossible plan to execute (excuse the pun) in the way post war history was written.
PS to Higgs Bosun and totally off topic,

I would like to see you start a thread about your stated doubts re the Holocaust.

And as to why you hold these doubts.
Background: Wiki view of the "non-revisionist" position: Extermination camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Holocaust denial is highly discredited by scholars and is a criminal offence in Austria, Belgium, The Netherlands, France, Germany, Lithuania, Poland, and Switzerland."

So if you really want to know what Zyclon B was used for start a new topic.
Starter for ten ...
Zyklon B - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A Study of the Cyanide Compounds Content in the Walls of the Gas Chambers in the Former Auschwitz and Birkenau Concentration Camps


Summary - Zyklon B, a well-known insecticide used for fumigation and killing people.
 

LancePrivateJones

MIA
Book Reviewer
#4
Good call Excognito, I would rather that Higgsy himself started this thread as I requested but his bald statement in the 'Pope Off' thread has given me a new insight into this poster.

Higgs as we know, is an atheist/scientist and is insistent upon scientific proof, he is especially scornful of religion and its followers because of the lack of scientific proof as he puts it.

Therefore his statement that the Holocaust is somewhat fallacious must be backed up by scientific proof, I doubt he will accept eyewitness testimony (as in 'Shoah) because that might be seen to be 'emotive' in Higgsy's logical world.

I do hope that Higgs does turn up and presents his case.

He may have a point although I am beginning to suspect he is an educated and erudite troll.
 
#5
Proof lots of german and east european jews before hitler.
After not so many and they didnt all go to slaughter arabs.
So what happened a particular viriulent case of the sniffles?
Or the nazis said tey were going to kill jews guess thats what they did:(.
 

sirbhp

LE
Book Reviewer
#6
NEVER AGAIN !

well not untill the breakup of Yugoslavia that is , and the films by news crews possibly help stop another blot on humanities CV .
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
#7
Just read Gerald Seymour's 'Time Bomb' - a thriller set in Poland and Belarus, with a background story line involving one of the less well known (over here ) camps - Sobibor.

I wonder if Bosun Higgs has ever visited one of the former Nazi death camps? Not the cheeriest way to spend a sunny June afternoon but ....instructive.
 
#8
I got into a heated debate on another site with someone who linked to a holocaust denial blog, I linked to an academic paper called Body Disposal at Auschwitz, it didn't leave him with any wiggle room so he went off in a huff.
 
#10
I got into a heated debate on another site with someone who linked to a holocaust denial blog, I linked to an academic paper called Body Disposal at Auschwitz, it didn't leave him with any wiggle room so he went off in a huff.
I have researched this subject and there appears to be plenty of proof, scientific and otherwise.
Holocaust deniers tend to go for the old 'It's all circumstantial evidence' stance magnificently ignoring that the circumstantial evidence is somewhat overwhelming. Many court cases have been proven on circumstantial evidence alone so precedent exists and circumstantial evidence should not be seen as a lesser proof.

Higgs addressed the question of 'Zyclon' (sic) so I presume his doubt is centered upon the gas chambers.

Maybe he would like to explain to us all the real purpose of crematoriums II, III, IV and V at the Birkenau camp.

The plans do seem to point to a dual purpose facility rather than a mere crematorium.
 
#12
I have researched this subject and there appears to be plenty of proof, scientific and otherwise.
Holocaust deniers tend to go for the old 'It's all circumstantial evidence' stance magnificently ignoring that the circumstantial evidence is somewhat overwhelming. Many court cases have been proven on circumstantial evidence alone so precedent exists and circumstantial evidence should not be seen as a lesser proof.

Higgs addressed the question of 'Zyclon' (sic) so I presume his doubt is centered upon the gas chambers.

Maybe he would like to explain to us all the real purpose of crematoriums II, III, IV and V at the Birkenau camp.


The plans do seem to point to a dual purpose facility rather than a mere crematorium.
Attempts to discredit the purpose and efficiency of Gas Chambers and Zyklon B is a common technique used by Holocaust Deniers, and include variations such as:

1)The Gas Chambers and Zyklon B were used to delouse Jews etc, not kill them.

2)The Gas Chambers that were found at Birkenau did not have vents in the roof to drop in Zyklon B.

3)Bricks from Gas Chambers were found to not contain a strong enough residue of cyanide to kill a human being.

All of the above is utter bollocks, of course.
 
#13
Attempts to discredit the Nazi's use of Gas Chambers and Zyklon B are common by Holocaust Deniers, and include variations such as:

1)The Gas Chambers and Zyklon B were used to delouse Jews etc, not kill them.

2)The Gas Chambers that were found at Birkenau did not have vents in the roof to drop in Zyklon B.

3)Bricks from Gas Chambers were found to not contain a strong enough residue of cyanide to kill a human being.

All of the above is utter bollocks, of course.
Indeed.

Higgs seems to think otherwise.

He has very strong views on other subjects and will always insist that he is right and the rest of us who may dissent with his opinion are utter idiots.
That is his Schtick.

He seems to have a problem with 'Zyclon' (his spelling) and I presume that he is taking this stance from his usual "I am right and you are wrong" position backed up by hard evidence.

He has been very quiet since this afternoon.
 

mercurydancer

LE
Book Reviewer
#14
Indeed.

Higgs seems to think otherwise.

He has very strong views on other subjects and will always insist that he is right and the rest of us who may dissent with his opinion are utter idiots.
That is his Schtick.

He seems to have a problem with 'Zyclon' (his spelling) and I presume that he is taking this stance from his usual "I am right and you are wrong" position backed up by hard evidence.

He has been very quiet since this afternoon.
LPG

The spelling of zyclon b in that fashion was an error of mine. I spelt it that way and HB copied it.
 
#15
Perhaps this Higgs-Bosun chappie should just get hold of some Zyklon B and take a shower with it. It's the only way to be sure.
 
#16
The reason Holocaust denial is a crime in some countries is because it is what is known as 'code' or more recently as a 'dog whistle' intended to be audible to the desired audience but deniable to others. The evidence of what went on is utterly overwhelming, even if one regards ONLY the eyewitness testimony: to organise so many people to state and stick to a fabricated story is fantastical.

The 'code' translates as, "Well done the Germans". I'd have more intellectual respect for someone who just came out and said so, though I would naturally despise them on moral grounds. To use weaselly pretend-arguments and to nit-pick over trivia and then to pretend that tiny inconsistencies invalidate the whole, is to show themselves as intellectually, as well as morally, contemptible.
 
#18
Looks like you might get one over on Higgsy this time Corgs, imho Holocaust denial might be an interesting albeit distasteful topic for a skeptic, but it's unlikely to be fake. It's up there with the Moon Landings for weird conspiracy. David Irving has been discredited by the wider scholarly community and that's good enough for me, or is there meant to be an ulterior motive or a Zionist conspiracy?

The Nazis didn't just kill 6 million Jews in the death camps, they were thrown into quarries and buried in unmarked graves deep in the forests. Even with these other areas to commit murder, the death camps themselves certainly appear organised and capable enough to kill large quantities of people in a short time period. That's a particularly sinister claim to fame that the Nazis have actually, the Commies may have killed more people, but no-one in history has killed so many and in such a short time period as the Nazis.
 

Grumblegrunt

LE
Book Reviewer
#19
#20
This site has an awful lot of material and is probably the primary resource on the net for Axis History/Holocaust stuff:

Axis History Forum • View forum - Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes

Axis History Forum • German Concentration Camps, Industry and War Crimes

Axis History Forum • Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread


From the Holocaust Reference Thread:

Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread
by nickterry on 19 May 2006, 13:56

The number of victims of the Holocaust is a continuously contentious question. Many threads exist on this forum which discuss the numbers. However, because there is so much debate and discussion, these threads are cluttered and not easily useable as reference sources.

The following figures below represent the results of past discussions on Axis History Forum, in particular these threads:

'How many Jews were killed for real'
viewtopic.php?t=33429&start=75&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

'The most reliable Holocaust statistics on web'
viewtopic.php?t=101014&start=30

as well as ongoing research and double-checking of the existing literature and primary sources.

The primary source for these figures is the well-known Wolfgang Benz collection, with however all evident double-countings eliminated. I have used post-1991 research to break down and clean up Eastern Europe, in particular Poland and the Soviet Union.

1) If border changes took place between 1933 and 1950 then any possible overlaps have been cleaned up, e.g. the overlap between Romania and Hungary has been identified.

2) The statistics refer to the number of Jews who died after being deported from the respective country or killed inside the country.

3) If e.g. German and Austrian Jews fled to France, they are counted as French and not double-counted as German or Austrian.

I hope it will be possible to present comparative listings giving pre-war, wartime and postwar border boundaries as the frames of reference, percentages of pre-war Jewish population, number of survivors, etc.

Victims of the German 'Final Solution of the European Jewish Question'

Germany 150,000
Austria 48,767
Luxemburg 720
Netherlands 100,000
Belgium 23,484
France 76,134
Denmark 116
Norway 758
Finland 8 German refugees handed over
Italy 6,513
Albania 591
Greece 59,185
Yugoslavia: 65,000
Hungary 410,000+ (1940 borders)
Czech Republic 77,297(1940 borders)
Slovakia 66,000 (1940 borders)
Romania 120,919 (1940 borders)
Estonia 1,000
Latvia 77,000
Lithuania 140,000 (1939 borders)
USSR 1,050,000 (1939 borders
- Belorussian SSR 250,000 (1939 borders)
- Ukrainian SSR 656,000 (1939 borders)
- Russian SFSR 144,000
Poland 2,890,000 (1939 borders)
- western Poland 1,600,000 (German occupation from 1939)
- eastern Poland 1,210,000
- Wilno district 80,000
Total 5,364,492 as a minimum



Camps
Auschwitz: Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Norway, Belgium, Luxemburg, France, Netherlands, Italy, Yugoslavia, Greece, Hungary, Poland
Belzec: Poland
Chelmno: Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Luxemburg, Poland
Sobibor: Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia, France, Netherlands, Poland, Lithuania, Belorussia
Treblinka: Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Poland
Majdanek: Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland Maly Trostinets: Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Belorussia
Bergen-Belsen: Albania, Hungary

International Ghettos
Riga: Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia
Theresienstadt: Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Netherlands,

Killed on the spot in whole or in part
Yugoslavia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Belorussia, Ukraine, Russia, Romania


Sources:
Wolfgang Benz (ed), Dimensionen des Völkermords, Munich, 1991 including chapters by
Ino Arndt/Heinz Boberach – Germany
Jonny Moser – Austria
Ino Arndt – Luxemburg
Juliane Wetzel – France and Belgium
Gerhard Hirschfeld – Netherlands
Hermann Weiss – Denmark
Oskar Mendelsohn – Norway
Liliana Picciotto Fargio – Italy
Gerhard Grimm – Albania
Hans-Joachim Hoppe – Bulgaria (= annexed Yugoslav and Greek territory)
Holm Sundhausen – Yugoslavia
Laszlo Varga – Hungary
Eva Schmidt-Hartmann – Czechoslovakia
Krista Zach – Romania
Franz Golczewski – Poland
Gerd Robel - Soviet Union


plus
Ilya Altman, Victims of Hate: The Holocaust in the Soviet Union 1941-1945, Moscow, 2002 (Russian)
Christian Gerlach, Kalkulierte Morde. Die deutsche Wirtschafts- und Vernichtungspolitik in Weissrussland 1941 bis 1944. Hamburg, 1999
Christian Gerlach and Götz Aly, Das letzte Kapitel. Der Mord an den ungarischen Juden 1944/45. Stuttgart, 2002
Alfred Gottwald and Diana Schulle, Die Judendeportationen aus dem Deutschen Reich 1941-1945, Wiesbaden, 2005
Emanuil Ioffe, Belarusian Jews: Tragedy and Heroism, 1941-1944, Minsk, 2003 (Russian)
Aleksandr Kruglov, Catastrophe of Ukrainian Jewry: Encyclopedic Dictionary, Kharkov, 2001 (Russian)
Franciszek Piper, Die Zahl der Opfer von Auschwitz, Oswiecim, 1993
Dieter Pohl, Nationalsozialistische Judenverfolgung in Ostgalizien 1941-1944. Munich, 1996
Dieter Pohl, Von der ‘Judenpolitik’ zum Judenmord. Der Distrikt Lublin des Generalgouvernements 1939-1944. Frankfurt am Main, 1993

and compare with
Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of European Jews, Chicgo, 1961, German edition: Frankfurt am Main, 1991
Gerald Reitlinger, The Final Solution, London, 1955
Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, Jerusalem, 1988

many more sources to be listed.

We might agree that Christianity and religion is a load of bollocks Higgsy, but I'm pretty sure the Nazi side of things was the real deal.
 
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