Discussion in 'Military History and Militaria' started by PartTimePongo, Dec 5, 2004.
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Commons Early Day Motion.
Lets hope that he gets it then. Read his book....brave man, and Irish
'Paddy' Maine: "On entering a room/house/enclosed-area, shoot the first person who moves [after you've shouted the needed warnings for everyone to remain still], as they have started to think - and that makes them dangerous..."
One of the architects of CQB and deserves the gong in my book.
I agree with BIB, read his book some years ago, very enjoyable it was to.
Chokinthechicken? Who got you out of bed at this time in the morning!!!?? I agree, This chap should get his VC just for assisting the formation of the best SF in the world (and the yanks know it!!!) never mind his act of bravery!!!!!
I don't think US Col Charlie Beckwith (spent 2 years on secondment to the Regiment, and was put through both Selection and Long Drag) would disagree with you.
After all, he did design Delta around the 4 Squadron pattern.
Reply to Part Time Pongo: " A Posthumous VC for Paddy Maine?
Sorry your hopes has been built up by this politican who either never served in the forces and likewise dosn't know military rules or the difference between claiming recommended decorations and claiming forgotten campaign medals. Or is playin little games with dead heroes to get votes.
For instance if Col Paddy Maine was awarded a Posthumous VC by government today then the next thing you would have is some navy vets wanting another Posthumous VC for Captain Johnny Walker DSO & three bars. http://www.biblio.com/books/16465236.html Then the RAF vets would want a VC for some pilot who never got one but should have, and so on & on until every regiment (disbanded or still operational) in the whole Army would be putting forward names of heros who never but should have got a VC.
Its impossible to go back and claim a decoration like a VC, GC, MC to name just a few, which was not recommended at the time. I am sure servicemen and all vets would agree politicans who play games with dead heroes like Col Paddy maine to get votes should be horse whipped out of government?
If they can find new evidence that has been un-earthed, then why not look into it and award the medal, and to others that can find new evidence.
From the 1st message above, it looks like new evidence has been found in Kew in relation to Paddy Maine's bravery. Secondly, it states that he alrerady had a citation in for the VC, but probably downgraded to another bar to his DSO due to lack of evidence. Pure speculation on my part, but just a good guess.
Bad idea. This kind of thing goes on in the US and has led to all kinds of fraud. Paddy Mayne probably deserved a VC, but so have many others who, for one reason or another, haven't received it. Anyway, he's been dead for forty-odd years so who is this going to reflect credit on?
He was a brave man and a giant amongst his peers, but we know that from his record and his four DSOs, and I don't think bending the rules to award him a VC will make anyone think any more highly of him.
Echo Chickenpunk on that one.
Those that matter know the legend that is 'Paddy Maine' those that matter know that a VC wouldn't have made an ounce of difference to him.
Let it lie... the man, his story, and his contribution could never be repayed with a mere medal anyway.
I see your point. The RAF would probably demand the VC for LAC Reynolds. I've always wondered why, in a 3 Man bomber crew, 2 got the VC and one got nothing.
I'm not sure if this is down to "politicking" or just hard lobbying by the support group?
What about Air Vice-Marshal "Johnnie" Johnson CB, CBE, DSO and Two Bars, DFC and Bar. Should he have been awarded a VC as well?
The VC for his overall career and leadership like Cheshire? Or for surviving that bloody awful waste of good pilots and aircraft refereed to as Rhubarbs and Circuses?I'm not taking anything away from Johnson, he was a fine man, whom I had the priviledge of meeting before his death, but do you have a particular act of bravery or operation in mind?
Certainly , the air battle over Dieppe may qualify him, but, as far as I remember, only 1 VC went to Fighter Command in the whole war. Maybe there is a case for more.
As regards LAC Reynolds...
The is no doubt, that Garland , Grey and Reynolds were exceptionally brave men, in the company of other exceptionally brave men. The attack on the Bridges over the Meuse was a one way trip and an all volunteer show, they went, they didn't come back, The Pilot and the W/op-Bomb Aimer both got the VC, but the gunner, in the same aircraft got nothing. To my mind, there is something wrong in that.
Whilst we are at it why shouldn't the female members of SOE have been awarded VC's rather than GC's? I have heard specualtion that this was because they were women?
For instance FANY officer Violette Sazbo ( Londoner of French descent) awarded a GC for her work in France after D-Day, in particular the mayhem inflicted on SS-Das Reich and finally captured after a firefight with SS troops.........
Madame Szabo volunteered to undertake a particularly dangerous mission in Franceâ¦. In her execution of the delicate researches entailed she showed great presence of mind and astuteness. She was twice arrestedâ¦., but each time managed to get away.
â¦She was arrested and had to undergo solitary confinement. She was then continuously and atrociously tortured, but never by word or deed gave away any of her acquaintances or told the enemy anything of value. She was ultimately executed. Mme Szabo gave a magnificent example of courage and steadfastness.
Maybe Poppy can give us her view on this........
As I understand it, SOE were usually (incredibly brave and talented) civvies so the GC is the highest honour that they can get. They may have had honorary military rank but they were still civvies. (Merchant Navy sailors are eligible for the VC and I think one was awarded in WWII.)
The VC is awarded for valour 'in the face of the enemy'. It doesnât have to be âin actionâ as illustrated when Petty Officer Thomas Gould and Lieutenant Peter Roberts removed UXBs from the casing of HMS/m Thresher at sea, hostile territory with the boat poised to crash dive without them if the bombers came back. Technically 'in the face of the enemy' and VCs were awarded. Able Seaman Colin Grazier and Lieutenant Anthony Fasson died relieving U559 of its code books and got posthumous GCs, technically not face of the enemy.
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