A Pistol for every man- a good idea ?

#1
The French army has decided to issue a pistol to each deployed infantryman in A-stan on top of his issued rifle/LMG/ATK weapon etc.

Approx. 4,000 PAMAS G1 pistols (license-built Beretta 92F) are to be procured from Gendarmerie stocks (they now use the SigPro 2022 instead) and distributed to front line troops.

I know the UK has procured about 4,000 L105A1 (SIG P226) in the last year or so for combat duties; anybody knows if a double issue of weapons (ie rifle + pistol) is to be considered standard now ?

What is your opinion on that ? necessary for CQB/enclosed space/tunnel/karez etc types of situation or one more useless tool to lug around ?

Thanks
 
#4
fantassin said:
I know the UK has procured about 4,000 L105A1 (SIG P226) in the last year or so for combat duties;
Thanks
Just for accuracy, it was the L105A2 that was bought. :D

As for the rest of your question, im not sure that it will be standard for everyone to have two weapons. Loads of troops need em, and loads don't. I hope it will be done on a capability requirment basis, not a general issue.

PR
 
#5
Id agree with Dave, their is a fascination with pistols, had one waved at me by a sangar sentry, was funny till it went off, then it was change trousers for me, and a long spell for him. Ive seen more Nds with pistols then owt else, everyones a John Wayne.
 
#6
Picatinny_Rail said:
fantassin said:
I know the UK has procured about 4,000 L105A1 (SIG P226) in the last year or so for combat duties;
Thanks
Just for accuracy, it was the L105A2 that was bought. :D

As for the rest of your question, im not sure that it will be standard for everyone to have two weapons. Loads of troops need em, and loads don't. I hope it will be done on a capability requirment basis, not a general issue.

PR
I stand corrected !

:wink:

BTW, what's the difference b/w L105A1 and L105A2 ?
 
Z

Zarathustra

Guest
#7
I had a pistol in Afghan along with my LMG. Never fired it. Even though we spent alot of time on the ranges training to switch from rifle to pistol in the event of a stoppage etc.

It ended up staying in my WMIK. It only came in handy for the odd occasion i was in camp it meant i didnt have to carry my LMG around with me.

They would be good for vehicle crews who might not have to space to bring their IW to bear when driving through towns and villages where a potential threat could pop up feet away.
 
#8
fantassin said:
BTW, what's the difference b/w L105A1 and L105A2 ?
The A1 and A2 had a few minor material differences, and a few angle changes to help disipate firing stresses from building up in the weapon, but the main one was the tactical rail under the frame!
 
#9
Usually, I would agree that regular Line Infantry do not need pistols.

1- Takes shed loads of time to really become proficient in their use

2- Takes up space for another 3X30 rd Magazines on your load carrying rig

3- Limited accuracy/range for the trade off.

When I was a Machinegunner, my secondary weapon was a M1911A1. Only because I had a Personally owned .45 and regularly went to the range did I become proficient in its use. I usually went through about 250 rds per month of civvie FMJ loads. Otherwise we fired it once a year and then less than 50 rds. There is almost something primitive in wanting to have a Roscoe. But the reality is most cant use it effectively to justify it.

That said, My Former unit went to Afghanistan last year and all 4,000 of them were issued M9 Berettas in Serpa Holsters. AFAIK from talking to them since returning home, they were never pulled in anger.
 
#10
My unit had three M9 pistols issued to each nine man infantry squad when we went to Iraq. Pistols were issued to the minimi gunners due to the M249's unfortunate tendency to go clunk instead of bang. At close range that type of weapon often takes to long to place back into action than is healthy.

Very useful when doing confined space searches and for the personnel and vehicle search pax at checkpoints. One for every man >Waste of weight, space, and money. I trained my lot up in Iraq for that was the first opportunity to get proper range and ammunition allocations. (Yes lots of dry training prior to departure, plus a minimal qualification)
 
#11
I carried a pistol on Herrick and didn't fire a round on the ground from it. That said, I do think they are a good idea to have, if you have the option.

1) As mentioned, drivers benefit from having them. I had an LMG when I was driving and, when we were contacted and I had to disembark the vehicle, I could not readily bring the LMG to bear. The 9 milly I could.

2) Searching cubby holes and tunnels/people. In close quarters or close proximity to people, a rifle gets in the way or simply is too unwieldy to use. I found a 9 milly far more practical in such conditions.

3) As a back up weapon. Whilst I personally didn't fire the Sig on the ground, a couple of lads did. One was a point man blowing away some muppet in a compound, the other was a gunner who expended all his link.

As a closing point, for years blokes have been asking for pistols for ops and not getting them. As long as blokes aren't acting like John Wayne, I think it is a good thing the MOD is shelling out for them. 'Specially if it's a case of getting shot of them if blokes don't use them.
 
#12
HK MP7 for drivers, staff officers etc that need close range work (with LMGs/GPMGs issued 1 between 4).

For CQB or second weapons use the HK UCP. Uses the best bits of Glock and Sig sauer and has a built in picatinny under the barrel..... and both the UCP and the MP7 use the same ammunition.
 
#13
MP-7 probably a very good idea but the French infanteers only got the Beretta 92F because they were binned by the Gendarmerie in the first place and there are large stocks to play with !

Thanks for all the very interesting input, esp. from downrange.
 
#14
I've heard the MP7 referred to as a gimmick by a couple of SFOs I know who use it; given the choice they would prefer the MP5K PDW for reasons of accuracy. What are the advantages of the smaller round over 9mm?

CF: quite why drivers and staff officers need so many support weapons (I don't think the infantry has one GPMG to four soldiers) I don't know; perhaps a few could carry IW though. We also have the L22 as a PDW; what's wrong with that?
 

JINGO

War Hero
Book Reviewer
#15
Bravo_Zulu said:
I've heard the MP7 referred to as a gimmick by a couple of SFOs I know who use it; given the choice they would prefer the MP5K PDW for reasons of accuracy. What are the advantages of the smaller round over 9mm?
CF: quite why drivers and staff officers need so many support weapons (I don't think the infantry has one GPMG to four soldiers) I don't know; perhaps a few could carry IW though. We also have the L22 as a PDW; what's wrong with that?
I believe the reason for its use is given as its superior armour penetration. Hence it has not been widely adopted by Police due to over penetration issues. I know the Nucs use it but they and the MODs are a diffrent kettle of tuna really.
 
#16
The only lads that were issued pistols on Telic when i was there were the Warrior drivers, for obvious reasons. Personally i think there is definitely a fascination with pistols, especially amongst private soldiers that haven't had the chance to use one. This, combined with a pistols tendency to have a naughty dennis now and again means issueing on an individual basis is a no-no.

Personally, and as Goldbricker said, give me another 3 mags over a pistol any day of the week. (Although on the other hand Lost_Boy does bring up some good points about using them in confined spaces! Limited issue per section maybe the answer, maybe one for every 4 blokes...)
 
#17
CF, 4.7mm is not really powerful enough to be a combat round IMHO and the opinion of several other more learned people of my aquaintance, and it'll get even weaker if you fire it from a shorter pistol barrel.

If you must change from 9mm, .357SIG is possibly the best answer, fired from the same SIG P226's the Army already has. And as mentioned, the Carbine Sa80 is easily good enough as a short weapon for drivers et al.

Otherwise though, all the above points about the difficulties of pistol shooting, and the idea about 1 in 4 is probably best - give it to L/cpl's and above, then they could give it to whomever needed it in any given scenario - be it on point or out of link, or whatever else.
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#18
Yeoman_dai said:
CF, 4.7mm is not really powerful enough to be a combat round IMHO and the opinion of several other more learned people of my aquaintance, and it'll get even weaker if you fire it from a shorter pistol barrel.

If you must change from 9mm, .357SIG is possibly the best answer, fired from the same SIG P226's the Army already has. And as mentioned, the Carbine Sa80 is easily good enough as a short weapon for drivers et al.

Otherwise though, all the above points about the difficulties of pistol shooting, and the idea about 1 in 4 is probably best - give it to L/cpl's and above, then they could give it to whomever needed it in any given scenario - be it on point or out of link, or whatever else.
What about the 5.7 round that FN do for the P90 & Five-Seven Pistol, how does that compare?
 
#19
rampant said:
Yeoman_dai said:
CF, 4.7mm is not really powerful enough to be a combat round IMHO and the opinion of several other more learned people of my aquaintance, and it'll get even weaker if you fire it from a shorter pistol barrel.

If you must change from 9mm, .357SIG is possibly the best answer, fired from the same SIG P226's the Army already has. And as mentioned, the Carbine Sa80 is easily good enough as a short weapon for drivers et al.

Otherwise though, all the above points about the difficulties of pistol shooting, and the idea about 1 in 4 is probably best - give it to L/cpl's and above, then they could give it to whomever needed it in any given scenario - be it on point or out of link, or whatever else.
What about the 5.7 round that FN do for the P90 & Five-Seven Pistol, how does that compare?
The round and the wpn may be good but do you want to have to carry another wpn or two per section on top of your existing load for 'just in case' along with a fair few mags worth of ammo?

If you do you want it to be as convenient as possible i.e. a pistol.

Can you really see a LMG gunner with a P90 on his chest and 4 mags and some loose tucked in his daysack, on top of everything else he must carry?
 
#20
JINGO said:
Bravo_Zulu said:
I've heard the MP7 referred to as a gimmick by a couple of SFOs I know who use it; given the choice they would prefer the MP5K PDW for reasons of accuracy. What are the advantages of the smaller round over 9mm?
CF: quite why drivers and staff officers need so many support weapons (I don't think the infantry has one GPMG to four soldiers) I don't know; perhaps a few could carry IW though. We also have the L22 as a PDW; what's wrong with that?
I believe the reason for its use is given as its superior armour penetration. Hence it has not been widely adopted by Police due to over penetration issues. I know the Nucs use it but they and the MODs are a diffrent kettle of tuna really.
4.6 round was indeed designed to penetrate body armour, but it actually has less penetration against a squishy target than a 9mm. Not too many Taleban wearing body armour though.

Having tried both MP-7 and the L22A2, my personal opinion is that MP-7 is great for MOD Plod who want something light to carry on stag, but which is a bit more effective than a pistol. However IMHO it is a crap choice as a military weapon because it is easily outranged by an AK. I would suggest that the L22A2 is a much better choice for anyone who needs a compact weapon.

Pistols will always have a place for certain tasks. But training is certainly an issue.
 

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