A new Universal Carrier

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
#1
Starting this to address thread drift in the Long Tan thread.

Portage keeps popping up again and again in threads - the fact that over the years the individual's load has not got lighter (7.62 to 5.56 just means more rounds carried; personal protection means individuals are routinely fire-and-manoeuvring in weights that used to equate to CEMO, not CEFO, and so on).

The British Army of the 1940s had lots of solutions at its disposal - lorries, Universal Carriers and similar for many different applications, and so on. We seem to have gone backwards.

Project PAYNE was predicated on adequate G4 - something which will get howls of laughter from many.

The British Army is never going to have enough helicopters. Fact. Could drone technology be a solution, or do we need a new Universal Carrier?

A C&P from my comments on the Long Tan thread:

Putting aside for a moment the dinosaurs who want to re-enact what was done in the Falklands* purely because they retain that as their mental benchmark of skill-at-arms (forgetting that we were originally supposed to move around in Chinooks...), the universal (sic) response is cost; we can't do this because "it's too expensive".

One of the biggest parts of the defence budget is wages and pensions, no?

It's only too expensive if it's viewed in a very tight silo. Guys can carry more, and farther; turn up fitter to fight because they're not chinstrapped; be more agile and proactive/responsive; and they either have longer careers or else end their careers with less wear and tear/fewer injuries... which in turn enables them to be better-functioning members of society in the following years... which in turn means less of a strain on the social security budget.

"Ah," people will say, "but that's the social security budget, not the MOD budget."

Yes, the same MOD that starts every press release about a new piece of kit by telling how many civilian jobs the kit will support or create.

Selective thinking, and nonsense.
Thought/solutions/derision?
 
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ugly

LE
Moderator
#2
Provided WLFM doesn't mean rotting hulks in a year or two all we will have is enough troops to man the existing apc's. Problem solved.
 
#3
I remember that back in the day the infantry component of 24 Airmobile Bde had what could loosely be described as 'dune buggies'. They were primarily used as mobile Milan firing posts but they were also used in a G4 role.

More recently the Paras used to have a thing called Springer (I think) which was a UOR from Op Herrick to enable supplies to be transported quickly from an HLS into a FOB and could carry about a ton. So it would seem that there is a requirement for something of that nature.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
#4
@LJONESY

The US military is getting pretty serious about kicking it off against a near peer power.
..and that's going to batter the Golden Hour. If you can't guarantee air superiority, extraction is going to be be far harder. Probably means armour rather than rotary, and it probably errs towards guys being more mobile - which either means more guys in vehicles or better portage solutions.
 
#6
Starting this to address thread drift in the Long Tan thread.

Portage keeps popping up again and again in threads - the fact that over the years the individual's load has not got lighter (7.62 to 5.56 just means more rounds carried; personal protection means individuals are routinely fire-and-manoeuvring in weights that used to equate to CEMO, not CEFO, and so on).

The British Army of the 1940s had lots of solutions at its disposal - lorries, Universal Carriers and similar for many different applications, and so on. We seem to have gone backwards.

Project PAYNE was predicated on adequate G$ - something which will get howls of laughter from many.

The British Army is never going to have enough helicopters. Fact. Could drone technology be a solution, or do we need a new Universal Carrier?

A C&P from my comments on the Long Tan thread:



Thought/solutions/derision?

Just prepare to be burdened with with more kit and ammo and all the extra shit against the Russians. I would plan for limited resupply. Drones are great till they are hacked or shot down.

Future Army Brigades Will Fight for a Week Without Resupply, General Says
 
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#7
"The trouble is, all the protective equipment, right down to the sunglasses, has saved lives and minimised injuries, and the guys of WW2 would have given their gonads to have had it. It would take a brave commander/politician to now remove that protection or to fail to implement a new one and subsequently have to explain themselves to the families of the wounded/fallen."

@Awol

my guess is that we'd end up going into a "proper" war and finding ourselves outmaneuvered and unable to operate for as long/far before we acknowledged (and had the political headroom to acknowledge) that something needed to change.

we fought two wars where the primary objective became managing the public/political situation at home (minimise casualties, troop numbers not above what is seen as the min necessary, withdrawal dates trumping conditions etc.). we are out of the habit of fighting to win, because we havent fought any wars that we needed to win in quite some time
 
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#8
@LJONESY



..and that's going to batter the Golden Hour. If you can't guarantee air superiority, extraction is going to be be far harder. Probably means armour rather than rotary, and it probably errs towards guys being more mobile - which either means more guys in vehicles or better portage solutions.
The Golden hour has been thrown out of the window. We are going back to the 1980’s, but instead of Fulda we have the Suwalki gap.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#9
Supacats were ok, like most airmobile toys unarmoured and just no good in contact but better for humping kit than LPC's.
Springer seems to have been less successful.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
#10
I remember that back in the day the infantry component of 24 Airmobile Bde had what could loosely be described as 'dune buggies'. They were primarily used as mobile Milan firing posts but they were also used in a G4 role.

More recently the Paras used to have a thing called Springer (I think) which was a UOR from Op Herrick to enable supplies to be transported quickly from an HLS into a FOB and could carry about a ton. So it would seem that there is a requirement for something of that nature.
Springer was got rid of pretty much as soon as it arrived. It wasn't robust enough. The Supacat which preceded it was far better but wasn't running a clean enough engine. A Supacat with a more modern powertrain would do it.

And that's the thing; it's about portage, not providing another armoured vehicle. Boxer is apparently on the way. We had Saxon for that role 30 years ago. Spartan would also spring to mind.

This is about infantry - or where I'm trying to concentrate the debate.
 
#11
Mules...they work well
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#12
Just prepare to be burdened with with more kit and ammo and all the extra shit against the Russians. I would plan for limited resupply. Drones are great till till they are hacked or shot down.

Future Army Brigades Will Fight for a Week Without Resupply, General Says
All well and good but you need to deploy with more than just reserve scales of ammo and must be prepared to abandon them if need be.
I took part in an airmobile Bn attack. Live ammo on B range at Sennelager. The Bn marched in but our second line ammo was provided by chinooking in a bedford (see helibedfords did exist) and it was fitted with a hiab. Ammo was run up to the CQMS on this.
 
#13
"GPS steered Air Despatch loads released from high altitude Hercs.

It's been done I believe.... and gets a tonne of supplies on target in a single load. Okay, you need the available airframes etc, but one drop would equate to a hundred very busy little drones."

@Awol thats fine, but when we unpack it all who carries it? unless we're talking UC + the above

if its not then as i was saying earlier, i'd like to see the cost/capability/risk analysis for something like the above vs. drones. vs. some 1930's technology with a new engine
 
#15
Therefore it needs to be able to go where the infantry go, up hill, down dale and across swampy ground!
And don't forget the most unforgiving environment of all for a combat infantryman. Urban.
 
#16
"GPS steered Air Despatch loads released from high altitude Hercs.

It's been done I believe.... and gets a tonne of supplies on target in a single load. Okay, you need the available airframes etc, but one drop would equate to a hundred very busy little drones."

@Awol thats fine, but when we unpack it all who carries it? unless we're talking UC + the above

if its not then as i was saying earlier, i'd like to see the cost/capability/risk analysis for something like the above vs. drones. vs. some 1930's technology with a new engine
You think a C-130 is going to survive anywhere near the FEBA? The Ivan’s have some decent ADA. Put all your eggs in one basket and you are fucked if that basket gets shot down.
 

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