A new Deepcut report - published today

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#3
read it but not at hand.

one point stood out: british army suicide rate double general population. i wonder where they get the figures. but from my medical days i remember that the most common method of suicide in the uk is by overdose of non prescription medicines (aspirin and paracetemol, over 50% of cases).

that these four were all shot, and went to such lengths to get a rifle, when it would have been quite simple to get hold of a bottle of aspirin, the most common poison of choice in the uk, especially amongst the under 25's, arouses suspicion.

what is the suicide rate for the british army? if it is something like one case per 10,000 per annum then it is not much different from the suicide rate of many other similar foreign armies. so that does not arouse suspicion.

tales of abuse, including sexual harassment/abuse, in foreign armies, which i have heard about unofficially, and if what i have been told is true. happen. suicide rates are about one per 10,000 per annum. i do not know the methods employed, shooting. poison, cutting wrists etc., etc., as armies are, for want of a better term, coy about the subject. thus it might well happen in british army, however much the british or any other army might aspire to integrity, as individuals or collectively. abuse (physical to extreme) and or suicide (induced?) thus statistically, sociologically, likely.
 
#4
I would treat with caution any comparison which is only with the suicide rate in the population as a whole, and not with the same age group in the general population.
 
#6
Comparing suicide rates for the Army with that of the general population is bound to come up with misleading statistics.A&E wards across the country will be full today, as everyday, with those poor souls who have attempted suicide by overdose.There is a window of time in which it is possible to treat such people for the physical effects of that overdose.Many will recover(and many will do it again).However if the chosen method of suicide is shooting then there is no opportunity for saving them.If civpop had access to firearms as readily as soldiers do the suicide rate would be much higher than it is at present IMHO
 
#7
low-profile said:
read it but not at hand.

one point stood out: british army suicide rate double general population. i wonder where they get the figures. but from my medical days i remember that the most common method of suicide in the uk is by overdose of non prescription medicines (aspirin and paracetemol, over 50% of cases).

that these four were all shot, and went to such lengths to get a rifle, when it would have been quite simple to get hold of a bottle of aspirin, the most common poison of choice in the uk, especially amongst the under 25's, arouses suspicion.

what is the suicide rate for the british army? if it is something like one case per 10,000 per annum then it is not much different from the suicide rate of many other similar foreign armies. so that does not arouse suspicion.

tales of abuse, including sexual harassment/abuse, in foreign armies, which i have heard about unofficially, and if what i have been told is true. happen. suicide rates are about one per 10,000 per annum. i do not know the methods employed, shooting. poison, cutting wrists etc., etc., as armies are, for want of a better term, coy about the subject. thus it might well happen in british army, however much the british or any other army might aspire to integrity, as individuals or collectively. abuse (physical to extreme) and or suicide (induced?) thus statistically, sociologically, likely.
Hmmmmmmm

Two went to the extreme lengths of getting dicked for guard duty :roll:
 

chimera

LE
Moderator
#8
Private Eye can hardly be described as objective reporting. The In the Back reporting team are rabidly anti-Establishment, and always quick to jump on the conspiracy theory bandwagon.

It was Paul Foot (who died recently) who continued to write for the "In the Back" column in the Eye maintaining the innocence of James Hanratty (a convicted murderer executed in the 50s) long after contempory DNA forensics had confirmed his guilt.
 
#9
Dead on about the Hanratty spot, although IIRC what convicted him at the time was that he came off to the Jury as a Billy Big Bollocks, that got their goat and they potted him.

Or rather, hung him. Either way, he lost the penalty shoot out..

I read the Deepcut P/Eye thing and they were in pretty crusading kick the Establishment mode. Yes, the investigations were rubbish, by pretty much all concerned (SIB, Surrey cops) because they fell for the classic cop 'come to a conclusion, build the evidence to fit' formula and/or 'the other lot were rubbish, lets score some points, bugger getting to the truth'.

Which is a shame, because at the end of the day, those kids (all under 20) were treated pretty shabbily and are dead. Which is bad. But put a load together and suddenly it looks like 'conspiracy' and 'cover-up reaching to the highest level' and the Army gets a kicking, recruitment drops off etc etc..

Without question it appeared to be a shoddily run place, discipline had run down totally. That bloke on R4 today pointed out, quite rightly, that the RLC Trg being the least sexy was the bottom of the resource barrel, and it was allowed to slide. Demoralization leads to disillusionment of feckless youth, throw in weapons...... :(

I'm not a particularly big fan of the In the Back crew, Hislop is a god-awful weasle, but they are putting the questions out there when the mainstream press have moved on. The conclusion was that the Blake report is a white-wash. But hey, you've all seen Yes Minister. The reason you have an inquiry is to come to they very conclusion the government wants.
 
#10
Didn't seem to me to say anything that hadn't been common knowledge before apart from interested parties calling for a public enquiry. Don't know what difference that would make.
 
#11
Having read it, I don't believe the Blake Report was a whitewash. It came up with a pretty rational and honest assessment of the truth and dispelled some of the more lurid theories that have abounded, so it was bound to disappoint some of the stirrers, but it was extremely well put together, and rather sad reading (as well, no doubt, as beingextremely uncomfortable for some of the bit players in the various episodes).

I can't see what more can be learned from these events, either. But they have now achieved a notoriety in the media that no-one will ever believe - or want to believe - the real story, because minds are already made up
 
#12
thanks for the report ouyin.

in which it states a) army suicide rate significantly lower (except male under 20) than that of uk general population, in direct refutation of private aye. "I wonder where they get their figures".

b) overall army suicide rate is 14 per 100,000 per annum. nothing much different from comparable institutions overseas.

i wonder thus at private eye's agenda, and from my medical days: i wonder why private eye have nothing to say about the sods who have to pick up the pieces? the decent people there no doubt are, at deepcut. like i was able to stop suicide some times, but not always. some people really do want to committ suicide, and chose to perform this violence upon themselves, in front of others. b*stard i thought, b*stard. i had worked so hard to try and keep him alive.
 
#13
Billy Ruffian said:
Yes, the investigations were rubbish, by pretty much all concerned (SIB, Surrey cops) because they fell for the classic cop 'come to a conclusion, build the evidence to fit' formula and/or 'the other lot were rubbish, lets score some points, bugger getting to the truth'.
Surrey police had primacy in all investigations. The SIB 'ghosted' and assisted where Surrey bill wanted them to. Blaming SIB is a total misnomer. Unfortunately by the time the MOD Press Office had caught up, the military had already lost the press battle.
 
#14
there is constant reference to the "independant weapons expert", is there any further detail on the man? Some of his conclusions seemed questionable (granted, I haven't seen the evidence).
 
#15
Themanwho said:
there is constant reference to the "independant weapons expert", is there any further detail on the man? Some of his conclusions seemed questionable (granted, I haven't seen the evidence).
I have the article in front of me.

Frank Swann is an independant ballistics expert according to the article and there is also reference to the German Federal Crime Bureau (BKA) who worked with the Surrey police.

It is quite a sad article.
 
#16
Without re-reading the Blake Report, I recall that the opinions of Frank Swann (who was working for one of the families) was given relatively little weight compared to that of the BKA, which tended to contradict his. Might be wrong, but haven't time to re-read.
 
#17
Would I get bummed by Private Eye if I was to scan the article and put it up here?
 
#18
I believe Mr Swann was convinced that, despite members of the guard force witnessing the sad event, it was impossible for a young soldier to shoot himself 5 times in the chest with a service rifle. I also understand that he is particularly well thought of in forensic circles for allegedly using his kids to search a scene whilst basing his efforts from the family caravan (his mobile ballistics lab). I believe he started out on his epic journey as an expert witness via a gun dealership. Love the web site (and really must visit his jeweller at some point):

http://www.legalforensics.co.uk/index.html

It is also my understanding that the BKA were brought in to act as an 'independent' forensic agency who are internationally well respected and have no axe to grind i.e. not Surrey bill who were heavily criticised for their handling of the case and not Mr Swann, who (and I hope I am being fair to the man here) has risen to the top of his particular dung pile by obtaining certificates from a relatively small number of short duration seminars. If my apparent flipancy seems to come to the fore here, I apologise, however please take the time to run his 'quals' past someone who is familiar with the world of forensics to see if they would employ him (on a 1 pound nominal retainer, as he is on the Deepcut job) as an expert witness in the death of a loved one. I am and I wouldn't touch him with a forensically examined barge pole!
 
#19
Dear All Contributors on this subject. My name is Frank Swann, commonly known to friends as 'Franky'. Your comments were brought to my attention through various military and police friends.

All contributions to this ongoing debate are welcome, even if some are misinformed, through lack of available or unavailable facts.

I hope you all don't mind if I reply via your site, especially to 'jonny956' who posted on Wednesday Sept. 20th 2006 8.09 pm.

Dear jonny956, had you read the statements of members of the guard who 'allegedly' witnessed the sad event, you too may have been very sceptical as to what actually occurred. May I clarify a few points first?

I was not convinced that it was impossible for a young soldier to shoot himself 5 times in the chest with a SA80 5.56mm service rifle. All of us know that you can. That was not in my findings. Thank you kindly for displaying my website address: www.legalforensics.co.uk which if you view in the next few weeks, I will display photographs of our Mobile Forensic Field Laboratory, together with a knackered caravan, that was purchased especially for 'Deepcut' to have tea and sandwiches, and get warm in, as the RLC offered no facilities other than toilets. The exact opposite of Pirbright Camp just down the road, where we were granted facilities to eat cooked meals, paid for of course by us, and rightly so.

At no time did I use my 'kids' to search the various scenes.

You are right that the German BKA are indeed, along with the English Forensic Science Service internationally respected.

Are you also aware that BKA did not visit 'Deepcut' and that the FSS only spent one day looking at the various incident locations?

I and my team spent 6 weeks investigating the 'Deepcut4' Phase 2 young soldiers deaths, for the legal consideration of £1 per family, because they asked us to. (£4) We all lost 6 weeks of business and income, but believed that the truth was all that the families and the military and police required. How wrong you can be!

The Surrey Police who allege they did not know they had 'primacy' in investigating the various deaths, were quick to blame the army, and the army blamed the surrey police.

I and my team came to the conclusion that none of the 'Deepcut4' deaths were self-inflicted, based on scientific forensic tests and facts.

The BKA and the FSS have admitted that they cannot rule out murder, but they will not release their forensic reports to the dead soldiers families or legal representatives. IS IT THAT SURREY POLICE ARE RUNNING SCARED?

I make no criticism of your views, to which you are of course entitled, but I would ask anyone posting on this subject to be at least objective with their true facts.

I hold the British Armed Services second to none and I am justly proud of them; as I used to hold the Police Service, now that they have been politicised, I am not so sure about the 'senior rankers'.

If a civilian is found dead in suspicious circumstances, forensic teams immediately attend; if a british serviceman is found in Britain in similar circumstances, a 'Rupert' used to declare something along the lines of "He/She must have topped themself" and the local old bill would go away satisfied. Well, not any longer, any serviceman's death is now to be treated as MURDER until cast iron evidence, forensic and otherwise proves to the contrary. Just one small step for the Service Men and Women of Great Britain?

To the real soldiers who assisted and protected us, Major John KERCE, RSM Matt, Sgt. John, Cpl. Spud, Cpl. Carl, canteen and civilian range staff at Pirbright, our life long thanks and appreciation.

Be my guest if you feel you must criticise me, but please get your facts correct first of all. I am limited by what I can say publicly, but I will try to answer any sensible questions via this website, or if you require private replies then direct them to: faswann@legalforensics.co.uk when I will attempt to answer them, but I would require evidence that you are who you say you are in private email correspondence.

May I close by thanking all service man and women wherever they are serving for protecting me and mine, and may you return safe to your families and these shores.

'Franky'
 
#20
Saxon, thank you for your post - I am most grateful for being as candid as you can under the circumstances and within the constraints imposed upon you.

Conjecture will always thrive in the absence of objectionably verifiable facts and that conjecture has been and will always posted will provoke a response.

You cannot of course be offered messing facilities in a miitary establishment where you might develop a relationship on any friendly level with military personnel where you might be approached informaly with information that might lead to a line of inquiry, be probative, relevant and admissible. You would need to be kept as far away from soldiers as possible. That of course, is pure conjecture upon my part.

Be very suspicious where contact with soldiers is limited or strictly supervised!

This whole sorry affair has a tangible 'smell' about it and I am sure it is as detectable to you as it is to me.

I entertain no doubt that the truth will not 'out' during our lifetimes but probably will eventually from the Public Record Office.

Thank you for your contribution.

Regards and best wishes
 
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