A Land Fit for Criminals

#1
This is a huge cut and paste but I make no apologies for that; read it and then tell me that it surprised you:-

http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_oh_to_be.html

City Journal
Real Crime, Fake Justice

Theodore Dalrymple
Summer 2006

For the last 40 years, government policy in Britain, de facto if not always de jure, has been to render the British population virtually defenseless against criminals and criminality. Almost alone of British government policies, this one has been supremely effective: no Briton nowadays goes many hours without wondering how to avoid being victimized by a criminal intent on theft, burglary, or violence.

An unholy alliance between politicians and bureaucrats who want to keep prison costs to a minimum, and liberal intellectuals who pretend to see in crime a natural and understandable response to social injustice, which it would be a further injustice to punish, has engendered a prolonged and so far unfinished experiment in leniency that has debased the quality of life of millions of people, especially the poor. Every day in our newspapers we read of the absurd and dangerous leniency of the criminal-justice system. On April 21, for example, even the Observer (one of the bastions of British liberalism responsible for the present situation) gave prominence to the official report into the case of Anthony Rice, who strangled and then stabbed Naomi Bryant to death.

Rice, it turned out, had been assaulting women since 1972. He had been convicted for assaulting or raping a total of 15 women before murdering Naomi Bryant, and it is a fair supposition that he had assaulted or raped many more who did not go to the police. In 1982, he grabbed a woman by the throat, held a knife to her, and raped her. Five years later, while out of prison on home leave, he grabbed a woman, pushed her into a garden, held a knife to her, and raped her for an hour. Receiving a life sentence, he was transferred to an open prison in 2002 and then released two years later on parole as a low-risk parolee. He received housing in a hostel for ex-prisoners in a village whose inhabitants had been told, to gain their acquiescence, that none of the residents there was violent; five months after his arrival, he murdered Naomi Bryant. In pronouncing another life sentence on him, the judge ordered that he should serve at least 25 years: in other words, even now the law has not quite thrown away the key.
Edited by PTP. Whilst you make no apologies Old Adam , unless Theodore ,City Journal or Manhattan Institute have given express permission for this article to be reproduced in full, it will have to be a precis. I have added a link to the original.
Regards
PTP
 
#2
Interesting

An american website trying to lecture Britain on its approach to jails. where the Governments of many of its states hands out all too often the ultimate sentence - so long as the condemned is poor, below educational normality and usually black :roll:
 
#3
What is wrong with this fcucking ARRSE website? Whenever I write anything at length and post it I'm told ERROR!!!

No, no one will be surprised by anything above.
 
#4
doomandgloom said:
What is wrong with this fcucking ARRSE website? Whenever I write anything at length and post it I'm told ERROR!!!

No, no one will be surprised by anything above.
It's rumoured that BadCO has attached a bullshit detector to the server. :D :D :D

MsG
 
#5
Sven said:
Interesting

An american website trying to lecture Britain on its approach to jails. where the Governments of many of its states hands out all too often the ultimate sentence - so long as the condemned is poor, below educational normality and usually black :roll:
Theodore Dalrymple is probably best known for his weekly columns in The Spectator and his essays in the American quarterly City Journal. He is a psychiatric doctor working in an inner city area in Britain where he is attached to a large hospital and a prison. His columns report on the lifestyles and ways of thinking of Britain’s growing underclass. He also writes editorials for some of the larger British Broadsheets.

I think he is suitably qualified to express an opinion on the British legal and judicial system, even if some of the articles are posted in media sources across the water.
 
#6
Sven said:
Interesting

An american website trying to lecture Britain on its approach to jails. where the Governments of many of its states hands out all too often the ultimate sentence - so long as the condemned is poor, below educational normality and usually black :roll:
You know, it's really too bad if you're poor, below educational normality, or of a minority race. I "feel your pain" as a certain prominent sex addict once said. But when you victimize an innocent member of my community, I want you dead. I really don't give a sh!t what your "excuse" is. I don't care if Mommy didn't breast feed you, or Daddy didn't give you enough approval. I don't care if you grew up in a trailer home and had to eat dirt for meals three times a day. That's not my problem. Your BEHAVIOR has now become my problem. And I don't need any more problems than I already have on my plate. Nor does society. Execute the barstewards.
 
#7
mad_mac said:
Sven said:
Interesting

An american website trying to lecture Britain on its approach to jails. where the Governments of many of its states hands out all too often the ultimate sentence - so long as the condemned is poor, below educational normality and usually black :roll:
Theodore Dalrymple is probably best known for his weekly columns in The Spectator and his essays in the American quarterly City Journal. He is a psychiatric doctor working in an inner city area in Britain where he is attached to a large hospital and a prison. His columns report on the lifestyles and ways of thinking of Britain’s growing underclass. He also writes editorials for some of the larger British Broadsheets.

I think he is suitably qualified to express an opinion on the British legal and judicial system, even if some of the articles are posted in media sources across the water.
An interesting perspective, and I am glad to hear this guy knows the UK..

As a Police Officer, I do not agree with the death penalty, but do feel more has to be done about sentencing in the UK. With talks this week that shoplifters should not be jailed... what lunacy, crack on there seems to be the message.
My colleagues and I continually deal with individuals that no sooner than they are out are offending again. Prison needs to be a de-incentive, crime does not pay. Longer sentences, and harsher conditions, 3 offences and your in for life ala US.
The Political Correctness crew need to understand that many get an education in jail... how to deal drugs etc.
More prisons, longer sentences, harsher conditions, more Police Officers, less PCSO's...
rant over...
 
#8
Yank_Lurker said:
Sven said:
Interesting

An american website trying to lecture Britain on its approach to jails. where the Governments of many of its states hands out all too often the ultimate sentence - so long as the condemned is poor, below educational normality and usually black :roll:
You know, it's really too bad if you're poor, below educational normality, or of a minority race. I "feel your pain" as a certain prominent sex addict once said. But when you victimize an innocent member of my community, I want you dead. I really don't give a sh!t what your "excuse" is. I don't care if Mommy didn't breast feed you, or Daddy didn't give you enough approval. I don't care if you grew up in a trailer home and had to eat dirt for meals three times a day. That's not my problem. Your BEHAVIOR has now become my problem. And I don't need any more problems than I already have on my plate. Nor does society. Execute the barstewards.
I take it then You similarly want the CEO Enron or Worldcom or whatever given the needle, Lawrence Taylor similarly given the good news - or indeed Mel Gibson????????

Hmmmmmmm
 
#9
This is why if I was in power all the little sh1ts who commit crime would tremble.

The reason why people commit crime is irrelevant, it isn't social standing, how they were brought up, what they saw as a child... It is, frankly, irrelevant they have commited a crime full stop. If you take these in to account you move the goal posts all the time. Once you start moving the barriers they will not stop being moved. Just like with children or training dogs. A uniform approach where all know the consequences of their actions.

There should be a clear line. You harm another human being (ie murder, cripple, rape or in anyway affect their standard of living) you should be prepared to face the full force of the communities wrath. (I personally think the death penalty would be good for this, but it doesn't have to be so final.)

But what is worse they give these scum more rights than others. A gran who stole some cans of beans was banged up, as was a gran who didn't pay council tax. Yet some of the worse scum around are realeased on paltry sentances (see above). It is rediculous.

There is only one way to bring down crime, and it isn't outreach programmes or more prisons or speed cameras. It is a bobby on the beat with the power to put someone away for a long time/punish some one adequatly with out getting undermined by some bleeding heart liberal do gooder, or by the CPS.
 
#10
Tooldtodieyoung said:
mad_mac said:
Sven said:
Interesting

An american website trying to lecture Britain on its approach to jails. where the Governments of many of its states hands out all too often the ultimate sentence - so long as the condemned is poor, below educational normality and usually black :roll:
Theodore Dalrymple is probably best known for his weekly columns in The Spectator and his essays in the American quarterly City Journal. He is a psychiatric doctor working in an inner city area in Britain where he is attached to a large hospital and a prison. His columns report on the lifestyles and ways of thinking of Britain’s growing underclass. He also writes editorials for some of the larger British Broadsheets.

I think he is suitably qualified to express an opinion on the British legal and judicial system, even if some of the articles are posted in media sources across the water.
An interesting perspective, and I am glad to hear this guy knows the UK..

As a Police Officer, I do not agree with the death penalty, but do feel more has to be done about sentencing in the UK. With talks this week that shoplifters should not be jailed... what lunacy, crack on there seems to be the message.
My colleagues and I continually deal with individuals that no sooner than they are out are offending again. Prison needs to be a de-incentive, crime does not pay. Longer sentences, and harsher conditions, 3 offences and your in for life ala US.
The Political Correctness crew need to understand that many get an education in jail... how to deal drugs etc.
More prisons, longer sentences, harsher conditions, more Police Officers, less PCSO's...
rant over...

Amazing coincidence - as a teacher and as a community charge paying home-owner who is married with two children I agree with everything you say!!!!!! WTF.... at least there is at least two people with some common sense left in the UK !!!!!!
 
#11
Victim crime is no longer a priority - I believe that the justice system is more interested in what could be termed "crime against the state".

Hence the fact that 70 officers were required to remove the banners of Brian Haw in Parliament Square in May, and no officers responded to the face slashing of Peter Woodhams - which was followed by his recent fatal shooting, possibly by the same perpetrator.

I am sure this is down to Home Office directed resourcing and prioritisation rather than the wishes of the average copper on the beat.
 
#12
Sven said:
Yank_Lurker said:
Sven said:
Interesting

An american website trying to lecture Britain on its approach to jails. where the Governments of many of its states hands out all too often the ultimate sentence - so long as the condemned is poor, below educational normality and usually black :roll:
You know, it's really too bad if you're poor, below educational normality, or of a minority race. I "feel your pain" as a certain prominent sex addict once said. But when you victimize an innocent member of my community, I want you dead. I really don't give a sh!t what your "excuse" is. I don't care if Mommy didn't breast feed you, or Daddy didn't give you enough approval. I don't care if you grew up in a trailer home and had to eat dirt for meals three times a day. That's not my problem. Your BEHAVIOR has now become my problem. And I don't need any more problems than I already have on my plate. Nor does society. Execute the barstewards.
I take it then You similarly want the CEO Enron or Worldcom or whatever given the needle, Lawrence Taylor similarly given the good news - or indeed Mel Gibson????????
Hmmmmmmm
Oh, yes! No 'Hmmmmmm' about it, Sven; I agree 100%! Definitely Mel Gibson for the needle! :D
 
#13
MrPVRd wrote
I am sure this is down to Home Office directed resourcing and prioritisation rather than the wishes of the average copper on the beat.
Hang on, does this mean you think that the governments love of setting targets for it's minions, instead of allowing the subject matter experts to do their own prioritising, doesn't work?
 
#14
My post wasn't addressing the sociology behind crime - although I do believe that as Blair said, You have to combat the causes of crime as well as crime itself (shame he did so little to be tough on it though) - I was commenting on the US's lottery of justice. If You are anything but a middle class white man or woman You are much more likely to be treated harshly by the justice system.
 
#15
If You are anything but a middle class white man or woman You are much more likely to be treated harshly by the justice system.

As opposed to, say, a middle class white man who happens to be innocent of any charge in the UK, but vulnerable to being shipped across the atlantic in chains because the UK government are incompetent cretins?? Nope, you're absolutely right - US bad and totally racist, UK brilliant... :roll:
 
#16
Nibbler said:
If You are anything but a middle class white man or woman You are much more likely to be treated harshly by the justice system.

As opposed to, say, a middle class white man who happens to be innocent of any charge in the UK, but vulnerable to being shipped across the atlantic in chains because the UK government are incompetent cretins?? Nope, you're absolutely right - US bad and totally racist, UK brilliant... :roll:
Just because the US didn't have to offer any evidence it doesn't mean that they are not guilty. Lets wait for their trial, shall we.

And of course they are innocent, because everyone is innocent until proven otherwise. However lets give them their day in court eh, so that their innocence can be allowed to shine through.

Having said that, I disagree entirely with the current agreement that we have with the US and would much rather the 3 had been able to test whatever evidence the septics have over here
 
#17
Just because the US didn't have to offer any evidence it doesn't mean that they are not guilty.
Read my post - they are not guilty of any crime in England... Doesn't matter what the loons across the water think. Our government has sent British citizens who have committed no crimes within its borders to a polity that harbours IRA criminals - because it has asked them to.

(Edit - and that should read in italics above, 'have commited no crime under English Law - so there is no question that they can be guilty of anything, as free born Englishmen - unless you think that, for example, your wife or girlfriend should be extradited to Saudi Arabia in chains to stand trial for driving a car during her life here, or not wearing a full length chador when she last went to the gym)
 
#18
chocolate_frog said:
This is why if I was in power all the little sh1ts who commit crime would tremble.

The reason why people commit crime is irrelevant, it isn't social standing, how they were brought up, what they saw as a child... It is, frankly, irrelevant they have commited a crime full stop. If you take these in to account you move the goal posts all the time. Once you start moving the barriers they will not stop being moved. Just like with children or training dogs. A uniform approach where all know the consequences of their actions.

There should be a clear line. You harm another human being (ie murder, cripple, rape or in anyway affect their standard of living) you should be prepared to face the full force of the communities wrath. (I personally think the death penalty would be good for this, but it doesn't have to be so final.)

But what is worse they give these scum more rights than others. A gran who stole some cans of beans was banged up, as was a gran who didn't pay council tax. Yet some of the worse scum around are realeased on paltry sentances (see above). It is rediculous.

There is only one way to bring down crime, and it isn't outreach programmes or more prisons or speed cameras. It is a bobby on the beat with the power to put someone away for a long time/punish some one adequatly with out getting undermined by some bleeding heart liberal do gooder, or by the CPS.
Well said Choc frog I give feck all sympathy to any of the scrotes I deal with (Shoplifters & Druggies) when they start whinging. My Father was a Para Away most of the time then he became a long distance lorry driver and we saw even less of Him, Killed in a crash when I was nine, Mum an Alcoholic, grew up in shitty Pads then even shittier Council estates and I Have'nt gone out stealing, mugging, robbing cars and doing drugs. I just cracked on got a job (with lots lovely outfits in shades of green and Brown) and did something other than wallow in self pity. Now back on civvy street with bugger all money I have started from scratch again without Taking anything from anybody but my paycheck. I just give them the samaritans number as I ain't listening....RANT OVER...out
 
#19
Sven said:
Yank_Lurker said:
Sven said:
Interesting

An american website trying to lecture Britain on its approach to jails. where the Governments of many of its states hands out all too often the ultimate sentence - so long as the condemned is poor, below educational normality and usually black :roll:
You know, it's really too bad if you're poor, below educational normality, or of a minority race. I "feel your pain" as a certain prominent sex addict once said. But when you victimize an innocent member of my community, I want you dead. I really don't give a sh!t what your "excuse" is. I don't care if Mommy didn't breast feed you, or Daddy didn't give you enough approval. I don't care if you grew up in a trailer home and had to eat dirt for meals three times a day. That's not my problem. Your BEHAVIOR has now become my problem. And I don't need any more problems than I already have on my plate. Nor does society. Execute the barstewards.
I take it then You similarly want the CEO Enron or Worldcom or whatever given the needle, Lawrence Taylor similarly given the good news - or indeed Mel Gibson????????

Hmmmmmmm
Let's see if I can post now, last night I got a server error.

Ken Lay has unfortunately, escaped justice. By his intentional lying, defrauding, embezzlement and corruption, he not only cost the jobs of thousands of employees, he left thousands of employees with absolutely ZERO retirement. Employees who had already retired or were near retirement find themselves bagging groceries now because of his sociopathic manipulations. Had he lived--and were I in charge of giving out justice, I'd string the barsteward up, no doubts.

Worldcom? I'm a telecom worker, and I lost my job in the 2001 telecom crash. That crash was to a great extent brought on by the false representations and inflated revenue figures made by the snots in the Worldcom boardroom. They grossly skewed the telecom market with their lies, causing other telecom companies to make massive capital expenditures to attempt to keep up with Worldcom's reported revenues. I might not string those tie-wearing punks up, but I'd make them do hard time in a hard prison (i.e. not Club Fed). And make sure that THEY were bagging groceries when they finally got out.
 

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