A HAPPY VALLEY (Valley of Tears) (Not to be confused with a Police TV Series).

The story I heard was when the Israeli panzers launched their counter attack they thought the Egyptian Infantrymen were carrying suitcases. 'They have come prepared to surrender this time' the Israeli crewmen thought, thinking back to the 1967 Six day war when masses of Egyptian infantrymen surrended at first sight of the Israeli's. Que big shock when a number of Israeli panzers went up in flames after they were hit by Sagger AT guided missiles.

It was a real shock and initially caused heavy casualties and a WTF moment.

The simple solutions are usually the best ones on the battlefield. The IDF crews were pretty handy with their vehicle mounted .50s. They adapted their fire and maneuver drills and the Sagger crews were systematically shot to pieces.
 
If it's who I'm thinking of, they had local girlfriends and 'missed the transport home' in 1948. They subsequently served in the IDF and fought in various wars. It's an exaggeration to say that they founded the IDF Armoured Corps.

There's a story that a British monitoring station in Cyprus occasionally recognised their voices on IDF nets that it was listening in to, but it may be apocryphal.
They hadn't just 'missed the transport', they deserted in 2 Cromwell tanks.

They'd brought other Hagannah drivers into the tank park to nick more tanks, but in the event they couldn't drive them and only the two Cromwells driven by Flanagan and McDonnell were taken. The Israelis had one other Sherman tank, assembled from war damaged scrap, at the time of the 1948 war.

It's no exaggeration to say that they founded the IDF Armoured Corps; they were the IDF Armoured Corps in the 1948 war.


I'd always thought that getting Irish troops to man a tank named after Cromwell was a bit blinkered, even by WW2 standards. What could possibly go wrong?

There had been other instances of squaddies selling weapons and ammunition to the Jews, or diverting material, that was due to be scrapped, to them.
 
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They hadn't just 'missed the transport', they deserted in 2 Cromwell tanks.

They'd brought other Hagannah drivers into the tank park to nick more tanks, but in the event they couldn't drive them and only the two Cromwells driven by Flanagan and McDonnell were taken. The Israelis had one other Sherman tank, assembled from war damaged scrap, at the time of the 1948 war.

It's no exaggeration to say that they founded the IDF Armoured Corps; they were the IDF Armoured Corps in the 1948 war.

They didn't found the IDF Armoured Corps. They were a couple of adventurous squaddies who knew how to crew tanks and were very useful at a critical time. The new IDF founded its Armoured Corps, creating two brigades from existing plans. They had a cadre of officers to draw on, including some who'd recently fought in Allied armies. What they initially lacked (apart from all kinds of things) was MBTs.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
I watched it; interesting, entertainment, but very Hollywood-ised I thought.
The end was baffling, but I won't give any plot lines away. Every loose end possible, except for the bloke that got killed. I think they must have run out of money and been told to pack up filming at the end of that day; a bit like Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

The bit where the Syrians were hurling themselves through the door of the bunker seemed hugely implausible; there'd be a dozen ways to tackle that and that's not one of them.

I was in my teens when the Yom Kippur war started. There was a Sunday Times supplement that came out some months later, with a 5 or 6 page article called 'Avi's War', Avi being the author, an infantry man in one of the Bar Lev line bunkers in Sinai, that had been by-passed by the Egyptian attack.

The bit I remember, 50 years on, was that Avi and his mates were in radio contact with a near-by bunker as the Egyptians cleared it with flame throwers. Avi and Co decided to bug out that night, through the Egyptian positions; they survived.

View attachment 617710
I remember reading that in a dentist waiting room and it was the first time I paid attention to current conflicts!
 
If it's who I'm thinking of, they had local girlfriends and 'missed the transport home' in 1948. They subsequently served in the IDF and fought in various wars. It's an exaggeration to say that they founded the IDF Armoured Corps.

There's a story that a British monitoring station in Cyprus occasionally recognised their voices on IDF nets that it was listening in to, but it may be apocryphal.
Well. Brought them their first tanks.
 
The simple solutions are usually the best ones on the battlefield. The IDF crews were pretty handy with their vehicle mounted .50s. They adapted their fire and maneuver drills and the Sagger crews were systematically shot to pieces.

First time I've heard of this. Although you could fire towards the approximate source (that's if you were able to identify it - and the Sagger operator is located away from the actual missile so even if the launch kicked up dust, that wouldn't necessarily mark the location of the operator).
All that with a .50 cal at ranges of 500-3000 metres?

IDF Improvisations at the time included:
reversing or making sharp turns while shooting in the approximate direction of the source
Shooting into the ground ahead of the AFV to create a dust screen
calling in artillery on the location of the operator
 
First time I've heard of this. Although you could fire towards the approximate source (that's if you were able to identify it - and the Sagger operator is located away from the actual missile so even if the launch kicked up dust, that wouldn't necessarily mark the location of the operator).
All that with a .50 cal at ranges of 500-3000 metres?

IDF Improvisations at the time included:
reversing or making sharp turns while shooting in the approximate direction of the source
Shooting into the ground ahead of the AFV to create a dust screen
calling in artillery on the location of the operator

I was told that they integrated jeeps with mounted 50s into the armoured advance, possibly as a screen. I'll ask tonight, although memories might have faded after half a century.

ETA: Jeeps taking such vantage points as there were, flanking, and generally scooting around. Recce squadron hunting tank killers?
 
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AlienFTM

MIA
Book Reviewer
First time I've heard of this. Although you could fire towards the approximate source (that's if you were able to identify it - and the Sagger operator is located away from the actual missile so even if the launch kicked up dust, that wouldn't necessarily mark the location of the operator).
All that with a .50 cal at ranges of 500-3000 metres?

IDF Improvisations at the time included:
reversing or making sharp turns while shooting in the approximate direction of the source
Shooting into the ground ahead of the AFV to create a dust screen
calling in artillery on the location of the operator
One thing I empathised with. Watching a commander unloading his morale-booster (© Charlie Hunter, 15/19H, RIP) Three-oh at an enemy, real or perceived. The weapon moved alles über der Platz and the rounds will have been out of arc on both sides at the same time, with the cone of fire stretching from 50m to infinity and beyond.

Having fired a Three-oh over the back decks of a Mark 1 Ferret at Hohne, this is absolutely accurate, and gets calls on the net asking who's firing out of arc on the left, and who's firing out of arc on the right. At the same time.
 
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I was told that they integrated jeeps with mounted 50s into the armoured advance, possibly as a screen. I'll ask tonight, although memories might have faded after half a century.

ETA: Jeeps taking such vantage points as there were, flanking, and generally scooting around. Recce squadron hunting tank killers?

Infantry being used to hunt tank killers for sure - I did so myself in 1982.
Infantry recce units used jeeps with 7.62 weapons (MAG, Browning 1919).
.50 cal would be mounted on tanks, half tracks, APCs.
 
Infantry being used to hunt tank killers for sure - I did so myself in 1982.
Infantry recce units used jeeps with 7.62 weapons (MAG, Browning 1919).
.50 cal would be mounted on tanks, half tracks, APCs.

Absolutely willing to stand corrected, but I'm sure there were jeeps with 50s. Possibly the Recce troops cannibalised them on the battlefield and bolted them on?

I'm guessing the 73 War is the main reason why Merkavas were fitted with 60mm mortars. Even if you can't kill the buggers, you can keep their heads down and lay a smoke screen.
 
Absolutely willing to stand corrected, but I'm sure there were jeeps with 50s. Possibly the Recce troops cannibalised them on the battlefield and bolted them on?

I'm guessing the 73 War is the main reason why Merkavas were fitted with 60mm mortars. Even if you can't kill the buggers, you can keep their heads down and lay a smoke screen.

My dad's platoon fitted a battlefield cannibalized .50 to their Bren Carrier - I posted a pic of it on some other thread here.

The IDF M60 (Magach series) also had mortars. Useful for HE, smoke and (before TOGS) particularly illumination. Our infantry M113's also carried 52 mm mortars, on a directable frame (later replaced with the IDF 60 mm mortars).

IDF M113 with 60 mm mortar mounted on the deck at the rear
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Magach with 60 mm mortar
1638172995551.png
 
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My dad's platoon fitted a battlefield cannibalized .50 to their Bren Carrier - I posted a pic of it on some other thread here.

The IDF M60 (Magach series) also had mortars. Useful for HE, smoke and (before TOGS) particularly illumination. Our infantry M113's also carried 52 mm mortars, on a directable frame (later replaced with the IDF 60 mm mortars).

IDF M113 with 60 mm mortar mounted on the deck at the rear
View attachment 618827

258497492_10210324781713889_6484654250322893884_n-jpg.618827


Compare that to the pitiful armament on a 432...
 
258497492_10210324781713889_6484654250322893884_n-jpg.618827


Compare that to the pitiful armament on a 432...

The MAGs had special mountings that facilitated good arcs but It took quite a lot of training to square away all the drills for using the armament safely and effectively to 360 degrees.
The bazooka team at close range drill involved frontal charge with 0.5 and two MAGs blazing followed by a frag grenade as you passed it.
We also had a frontal assault drill that involved lowering the ramp while driving forward and the squaddies inside fanning out into a skirmish line on both sides of the APC.
The M113 wasn't very good due to a high silhouette, puny aluminium armour and slow speed, though it was reliable and able to traverse very rough ground.
 
The M113 wasn't very good due to a high silhouette, puny aluminium armour and slow speed, though it was reliable and able to traverse very rough ground.

I heard scathing criticism of the M113 from someone who used them in Gaza. A comment along the lines of "We felt safer once we dismounted and went forward on foot".

The sudden realisation that a highly trained Sayeret could be casually ordered into clanking 1970s deathtraps, and exposed to RPG fire, made him rethink his commitment to the IDF.
 
I heard scathing criticism of the M113 from someone who used them in Gaza. A comment along the lines of "We felt safer once we dismounted and went forward on foot".

The sudden realisation that a highly trained Sayeret could be casually ordered into clanking 1970s deathtraps, and exposed to RPG fire, made him rethink his commitment to the IDF.

They were old even when I started using them in 1980. The IDF concept was to use them as AFV's rather than lightly armoured battlefield taxis they were designed to be.
 
They were old even when I started using them in 1980. The IDF concept was to use them as AFV's rather than lightly armoured battlefield taxis they were designed to be.
The moment you start sticking .50 cals and a load of gpmgs on board, you create the illusion that the 432/113 can "take care of themselves" regardless off inadequate armour and no HE. They then get placed in situations they should never be in with sad results.
The decision not to stick anything more than a gpmg on a 432 might have done us a favour.
 
They were old even when I started using them in 1980. The IDF concept was to use them as AFV's rather than lightly armoured battlefield taxis they were designed to be.

The IDF never got it's head around the concept of IFVs.

I heard horror stories from 67 of mechanised infantry riding into battle against the Jordanians in open topped WW2 half tracks.
 
The moment you start sticking .50 cals and a load of gpmgs on board, you create the illusion that the 432/113 can "take care of themselves" regardless off inadequate armour and no HE. They then get placed in situations they should never be in with sad results.
The decision not to stick anything more than a gpmg on a 432 might have done us a favour.


prior to the M113 we had half tracks and the IDF applied the same AFV concept to them.
All the deficiencies were taken into consideration and now we have the Na-mer, but they cost about $3 million each.
 
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