A Fascinating Discussion About Firearms Law

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#22
Dogface..
despite what you may think, I was and am not a supporter of the Canadian effort at gun control through the ' regsitry' and such, but I do believe that there should be some basic requirements as to ' responsible gun ownership ' when allowing citizens of whatever temperment to have full and free access to lethal weapons. Simple criminal background check, routine search for previous mental assessment, though they certainly won't catch anyone who up to that point has been nothing but law abiding, it just might make the gunslinger types take a deep breath before slapping leather.

In the case of the Lawn Ranger protecting his turf, I'm of the mind that, had Ohio a law in place that required guns to be kept under lock and key, unloaded, that he would have taken a bit more thought in how to deal with the kid crossing his lawn than first reaching for his shotgun and picking the lad off from his bunker on the porch.. No doubt he would have grabbed a convenient Louisville Slugger or a pickaxe or spade , but the boy might have had a ' fightin' chance ' in close combat, on that score..
I suppose you, on the other hand, would have advocated that the 15 year old should have been packing heat, emulating your personal philosophy, and would then have been able to return fire possibly unloading his full clip of depleted uranium shells before passing out from blood loss from the .410 buck...but potentially avoiding the second point blank 'coup de gras ' the crabgrass protector felt he had to administer.
 
#23
Dogface said:
bossyboots said:
Its a wonder theres any americans left, the way they keep shooting each other!
Perhaps that's the reason for crimes against persons dropping in the US while rising in the UK or the reason home invasions are relatively unheard of in the US while they have become so much more common in the UK. Banning gun ownership by the law abiding does nothing, and has never done anything, to curb criminals or the devastation they cause.
Maybe you live in the Yukon or the midwest where towns have 20 living people in them but everwhere else home invasions are farely often heard of. While they aren't recorded seperately from burglary, in many areas they are on the rise in the US and many of them are unreported because they are drug related between gangs. Official stats for the country are hard to find.

Crimes have been dropping in both the US and the UK since the early 90's. I dont know of the stats for the UK but while total crime is dropping in the US, firearm homicides are on the rise.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page63.asp
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cv2.htm

http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html

1999 - 2003, United States
Homicide Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages
ICD-10 Codes: X93-X95, *U01.4


(Year) (Number of Deaths) (Population) (Crude Rate) (Age-Adjusted Rate)
1999 10,828 279,040,181 3.88 3.82
2000 10,801 281,421,906 3.84 3.79
2001 11,348 285,093,870 3.98 3.93
2002 11,829 287,974,001 4.11 4.06
2003 11,920 290,810,789 4.10 4.05

I agree that simply banning gun ownership will do little to curb the firearm crime by known criminals, tougher laws such as requiring trigger locks, gun cabinets or safes, safety courses will cut down on accidental shootings, theft of guns, and rage ending in gun use. Tougher punnishment of legal gun owners whos guns are used in crime would cause many to be more responsible with their guns. Tougher laws for the criminals when guns are used in a crimes, like doubling the sentencing guide line, would also help. Right now the laws in America are tougher to become a hair stylist than to become a gun owner.
 
#26
So is Kansas off your list as well Rocketeer? :D

KANSAS PASSES "SHALL-ISSUE" RIGHT-TO-CARRY!

On Thursday, Governor Sebelius' (D) veto of NRA-backed Right-to-Carry legislation, Senate Bill 418, "The Personal and Family Protection Act," was overridden!

"After 12 years, it took a collective, bi-partisan effort to win this fight," NRA-ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox declared. Kansas now joins 38 other states that respect the Right-to-Carry and allow their citizens to carry a firearm for personal protection.

The Kansas State Senate voted 30 to 10 to override Governor Sebelius' veto of the Right-to-Carry legislation. Less than a day later, the Kansas House of Representatives voted 91 to 33 to sustain the override.

Cox continued, "We want to recognize the steadfast support of several state leaders. Without their hard work, Kansans would still be deprived of this valuable law. Senator Phil Journey (R-26), Representative Candy Ruff (D-40), and Representative Gary Hayzlett (R-122), worked tirelessly on this measure and we thank them."

"As always, we appreciate the commitment and participation of our members in Kansas for helping pass this legislation and helping override the Governor's veto of this law that will serve to protect law-abiding Kansans and their families," concluded Cox.
 
#27
ctauch..

got to ask...

if ' everyone' in America is going to be given the ' right' to pack heat and strap on a six-shooter in emulation of the wild west for ' personal protection ' what do you need police for? Is this need for re-arming mom and pop at Walmart a response to a more lawless and violent United States that is losing its ability to control the criminal element? A paranoia that Dubya/Cheney and the Black Ops Big Brothers are starting to intrude a little too deeply into the privacy of ' law abiding citizens ' and they want a little ' payback ' manoeuvering room? Is America becoming afraid of ' others' that it has to defend itself at all costs, including loss of life for perceived insult?.. Sooner or later the ' I was just defending myself ' excuse is going to be challenged in a court when someone a trifle less stable, or infused with road rage, decides to open up on his neighbour because they ' infringed ' on his parking space, place in line, grabbed the last bath towel at the white sale, or whatever...[ or has it already started in some places like the freeways of LA ? ]

I have this sinking feeling that the old guy ' protecting his turf' by offing a kid taking a shortcut home is going to be the norm not the exception come a ways down the road...

The concept that, if I'm carrying and everyone knows it and they carry in response, that no one will ' draw down ' on the other a la " Mututal Assured Destruction " stalemate is not going to jibe and you'll start to see shootouts when someone cuts someone else off in the line-up for the best rides at Disneyland..
 
#30
Dogturd is a waste of space and a poor example of an American, i would rather speak to ctauch, indiandel, california tanker amongst othe reasonable American and of course Canadians,


Dogturds should be avoided as a smelly pile of poo that they are
 
#32
amazing__lobster said:
I just can understand his fetish with guns - maybe its a manifestation of something that happened to him when he was a child.
an extremly tiny penis perhaps :lol:
 
#33
Dogface... after you're finished poking Anya and making inane replies off topic maybe you could address my queries as to the rationale behind re-arming the USA and whither it may lead??
 
#34


Who would have thought that when spams talked about heralding a new century a few years ago, they were actually talking about the 18th Century. :roll:

Can't wait for the electoral map to turn that colour though. :wink:

(I love the name of the website the graphic is from by the way.)
 
#35
Really is this a dogfeces slagging page or do you really want to debate the topic

Rocketeer said:
ctauch..

got to ask...

if ' everyone' in America is going to be given the ' right' to pack heat and strap on a six-shooter in emulation of the wild west for ' personal protection ' what do you need police for? Is this need for re-arming mom and pop at Walmart a response to a more lawless and violent United States that is losing its ability to control the criminal element? A paranoia that Dubya/Cheney and the Black Ops Big Brothers are starting to intrude a little too deeply into the privacy of ' law abiding citizens ' and they want a little ' payback ' manoeuvering room? Is America becoming afraid of ' others' that it has to defend itself at all costs, including loss of life for perceived insult?.. Sooner or later the ' I was just defending myself ' excuse is going to be challenged in a court when someone a trifle less stable, or infused with road rage, decides to open up on his neighbour because they ' infringed ' on his parking space, place in line, grabbed the last bath towel at the white sale, or whatever...[ or has it already started in some places like the freeways of LA ? ]

I have this sinking feeling that the old guy ' protecting his turf' by offing a kid taking a shortcut home is going to be the norm not the exception come a ways down the road...

The concept that, if I'm carrying and everyone knows it and they carry in response, that no one will ' draw down ' on the other a la " Mututal Assured Destruction " stalemate is not going to jibe and you'll start to see shootouts when someone cuts someone else off in the line-up for the best rides at Disneyland..
Oh my cynical friend from the great white north; what do we need police for? Well in the words of my fire arms instructor: "...police are nothing more then crime historians..." You call the police while a crime is taking place or has occured, they show up after the fact and document what happened, just like a historian documents past events. BTW he is a retired Army officer and Cop.

The need for "re-arming" mom and pop is not born out of paranoia, but born from the fact that people realise that the cops can not be every where all the time. It has also been shown that states in which shall/must issue and right to carry laws have been passed crime decreases. John Lott has written extensively on this subject and from what I have read noone has proved him wrong. As a matter of fact that CDC conducted a (multi year) study on gun control laws and their affect on the overall crime rate and gun related deaths and said they are unable to prove or disprove that gun control lowers crime or gun related deaths and wanted to extend the study. IMHO they (CDC) sanctioned a study under the premise that gun control works only to find that it doesn't and need to spend more time and tax payers money to try and find evidence in favor of their premise.

To obtain a license to carry concealed in Florida one must submit finger prints, under go a FBI background check, prove firearms training (DD-214 or a class that the state accepts), and you must affirm that you have read the state statues that govern firearms and concealed carry (Fl SS 790), have not been convicted of any crimes (there is a list of specific disqualifying crimes in staute 790 and they need not be felonies) and are free of mental defect (they just don't take your word for it they actually check). In short the process is far more rigorous then obtaining a license to navigate a 5,000+ pound projectile (car) through public right of ways. To purchase a gun in the State of Florida you must pass a FDLE/FBI crimnal background check and wait 3 days before taking possesion of that firearm, that is in accordance with federal law. What Florida does not do is require the gun to be registered with the state after or during purchase, and the 3 day waiting period is waived if the person purchasing the weapon has a concealed carry permit. The permit must be renewed every 5 years for a fee, slightly lower then the initial fee.

Cops can not be sued when crime occurs or be sued if they are aware of a impending event and are unable to stop it. You have now refered to a single incident in Ohio, both the incident and my knowledge of Ohio laws is lacking. I can only tell you about Florida law and the use of deadly force. As noted earlier the recent removal of a "duty to retreat" from Florida State law does not allow for open season on humans. What it does do is affirm the "castle doctrine" and that anyone conducting "lawful business" in public should not have to first flee from a violent criminal act agaist them before defending themselves, but moreover it prevents a criminal or his next of kin from seeking a civil suit against a person adjudictated or never charge for using deadly force. What it does not do is change the burden of proof an individual must present if in fact they use deadly force. In Florida, I must prove that I am in fear for my life or great bodily harm or I was preventing a forcible felony (rape, murder, armed robbery, etc....). If someone calls me a cnut in private or public and I shoot them, I go to jail. If someone breaks in to my house, steals a TV and is on the way out the front door with said TV in hand and I shoot him, I go to jail. If someone walks across my front unfenced lawn with a gun in plain sight and I shoot them, I go to jail. If someone climbs over my fence displays a weapon and I shoot him I am at the mercy of the procesutor and may or may not go to trial and/or jail.

The stories you hear and read in the press both US and foreign are half-truths and what the reporter wants you to read. I doubt that if the man in Ohio shoot a unarmed boy he would be walking free, I am sure there is far more to the story then what is in the press.

The right to carry and own a firearm has a far greater responsibility then allowing someone to own and drive a car. I know loads of people that have been caught drink driving and in some cases killed or seriously injured someone and they still have a car and drive legally. I know noone that has committed a crime using a legally obtained and licensed to carry firearm and is not in jail. BTW the last I read 0.1% of licensed concealed carry permit holders in Florida have been convicted of a gun related crime :wink:

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html
 
#36
Ok Dogface's argument is that crime is rising in the UK and that home invasions are much lower in the US because of our lack of weapons...
It has beene established that US gun-caused homocide has risen.

Here are some of our figures


http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk

'Burglary' - Long-term national recorded crime trend




'Vehicle & other theft' - Long-term national recorded crime trend


ALL CRIME - British Crime Survey data


Domestic burglary - British Crime Survey data



Non-vehicle-related theft - British Crime Survey data




Of course you can find figures that show upward trends as well depending on the survey and the data you choose.


But there is one consensus.... Our lack of guns has NOT seen a soaring robbery, theft, burgalry or any other crime...
 
#37
Another new Indiana handgun law...

http://www.courierpress.com/ecp/news/article/0,1626,ECP_734_4560479,00.html

One change, effective July 1, will allow gun owners to get a lifetime carrying permit. Under current law, if gun owners want to carry their guns, they must apply for a carrying permit, pay a $25 fee and renew the permit every four years.

The new law...allows current permit holders to pay $100 to convert to a lifetime, unlimited carrying permit. A new lifetime carrying permit would cost $125. Owners could also still opt to get a four-year permit, but the act increases the price to $40.
It's good to be a Hoosier. :wink:
 
#38
AubreyGerrard said:
Another new Indiana handgun law...

http://www.courierpress.com/ecp/news/article/0,1626,ECP_734_4560479,00.html

One change, effective July 1, will allow gun owners to get a lifetime carrying permit. Under current law, if gun owners want to carry their guns, they must apply for a carrying permit, pay a $25 fee and renew the permit every four years.

The new law...allows current permit holders to pay $100 to convert to a lifetime, unlimited carrying permit. A new lifetime carrying permit would cost $125. Owners could also still opt to get a four-year permit, but the act increases the price to $40.
It's good to be a Hoosier. :wink:
OK, so you pay your $125. What happens if, 3 years in, another guy on the street with a concealed weapon notices that you're carrying, freaks, and gets a couple of rounds off before you can?

You'd be down $85. :D

Still, that'd be one less person in a state which is so fecking retarded that the population can't even figure out between themselves what time it is.
http://www.timetemperature.com/tzus/current_time_in_indiana.shtml
 
#39
It has beene established that US gun-caused homocide has risen.
Really where is that...checked all your graphs. BTW when you provid the "facts" please deliniate between right to carry states and anti gun states :wink:
 
#40
ctauch said:
It has beene established that US gun-caused homocide has risen.
Really where is that...checked all your graphs. BTW when you provid the "facts" please deliniate between right to carry states and anti gun states :wink:
Well, Machina is dead wrong on that score. Gun-related homicide and indeed all gun-related crime has fallen considerably since the mid 1990s. However, a 2004 US National Academy of Sciences report, which surveyed all the studies out there (Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review), concluded that there is no statistically significant relationship between these figures and the proliferation of right to carry laws.

[D]espite a large body of research, the committee found no credible evidence that the passage of right-to-carry laws decreases or increases violent crime...
http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309091241/html/

As I've said before to Dogface on another thread, with this justification removed from the equation, our resident gun nuts are basically little more than a socially circumspect sub-species of kit monster.

I just wish they'd admit to being so, but then how many people in HM forces (or any other armed service for that matter) would freely admit to being a kit monster of any sort?
 
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