A Call to KevinB - Come and enlighten us.

#1
Dear KevinB

I would like to invite you to discuss your belief and support of the Republican cause in Northern Ireland with other members of ARRSE.

I have choosen to ask you this in the NAAFI Bar, which is moderated by MDN, a person I believe will ensure that a fair debate and discussion can take place with minimal 'troll' activity.

To start the debate off, I would like to ask you the following:

How do you view your activity as a fund raiser for NORAID in light of the fact Rupublican terrorist killed persons not conected with the security forces/government in Northern Ireland including children, and sometime purely because of their protestant religion.
 
#2
Kev, for what its worth I dislike with a passion what you allege to believe in however I'm intrigued to see your side of the coin. Hopefully there is one and you haven't just been poking fun and trolling.

Understand that emotions run high amongst many, most of whom I imagine are like yourself and doubt they have even been to the Province. But I will ensure whilst its in the forum this thread will be void of personal attacks and childish vitriol and you will be given fair audience to put across your beliefs.
 
#3
He won't bother..... he knows he can't defend the indefensible.
 
#4
Mighty_doh_nut said:
Kev, for what its worth I dislike with a passion what you allege to believe in however I'm intrigued to see your side of the coin. Hopefully there is one and you haven't just been poking fun and trolling.

Understand that emotions run high amongst many, most of whom I imagine are like yourself and doubt they have even been to the Province. But I will ensure whilst its in the forum this thread will be void of personal attacks and childish vitriol and you will be given fair audience to put across your beliefs.
Thank You MDN - I'll play by those rules.
 
#5
I'd like to think he would. His posts have been mainly coherent and sensible, despite them not being what we want to hear.

Just to quote a couple of decent posts from the other thread:

T.F.R said:
Just my tuppence worth,

I like many have spent a considerable amount of time in NI. Regardless of my feelings towards the atrocious acts of murder, i think it would be refreshing to hear the views of someone who was actively involved, rather than the regurgitated IRA rhetoric of your average celtic supporting buckfast drinking ned, who wouldn’t know the troubles from the business end of a pint glass.

Bugsy said:
I always thought that the idea of a website such as ARRSE was to debate issues and not to decide whether the opinions of this or that poster were"acceptable" or not. Most of us may disagree with what KevinB has to say, but why don't we engage him instead of just raging about the subject?

Imagine somebody rocking up on ARRSE and attempting to defend the actions of Bob Mugarbage in Zimbabwe. Now wouldn't that be fun? Why not try to see debating with KevinB in (more or less) the same light?

Admittedly, high emotions are involved, but nobody's forced to accept his misguided arguments and it may be very instructive to dissect them in the hope that casual readers of this website might gain more insight into what motivated both sides.

MsG
I will drop KevB a PM so he is a aware this thread is here.
 
#6
As someone who served in Northern Ireland Londonderry, Forkhill and Belfast on 5 tours between 1973 and 1992, I have a fairly broad view ( which is correct albeit obviously biased) regarding Northern Ireland.

I would be very interested to hear any debate that espouses the common sense or humanity involved in the failed Terrorrist camapign that was operated by the "republican" elements in Northern Ireland in that period. Frankly I can see no justification in it - and worse yet after all this time Northern Ireland remains as it was in 1969, a staunch member and key element of the UK. Effectively the campaign of terrorism and suffering (to be fair on both sides) was in effect for nothing. What a waste!!
 
#7
Anyone new to this who is wondering what is going on here. KevinB has attracted some negative and abusive attention because of his beliefs and left the site of his own accord in April.

In November he returned and apart from a thread about Killing for Britain, which if I'm honest was readable apart from people derailing it with abuse hurling. Since then He has contributed to the Multinational forum with sensible coherrant posts and hasn't resorted to name calling, swearing or abuse.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/search/search_id=1506047955/start=0.html

Thats his profile. Have a read through, with the outrage bandwagon fired up I assumed there would be pro-Provo threads running and 'Up the IRA' type posts...... but I can't see anything.
 
#8
Mighty_doh_nut said:
Anyone new to this who is wondering what is going on here. KevinB has attracted some negative and abusive attention because of his beliefs and left the site of his own accord in April.

In November he returned and apart from a thread about Killing for Britain, which if I'm honest was readable apart from people derailing it with abuse hurling. Since then He has contributed to the Multinational forum with sensible coherrant posts and hasn't resorted to name calling, swearing or abuse.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/search/search_id=1506047955/start=0.html

Thats his profile. Have a read through, with the outrage bandwagon fired up I assumed there would be pro-Provo threads running and 'Up the IRA' type posts...... but I can't see anything.
Link's down, mate.
 
#10
#11
The-Goose said:
As someone who served in Northern Ireland Londonderry, Forkhill and Belfast on 5 tours between 1973 and 1992, I have a fairly broad view ( which is correct albeit obviously biased) regarding Northern Ireland.

I would be very interested to hear any debate that espouses the common sense or humanity involved in the failed Terrorrist camapign that was operated by the "republican" elements in Northern Ireland in that period. Frankly I can see no justification in it - and worse yet after all this time Northern Ireland remains as it was in 1969, a staunch member and key element of the UK. Effectively the campaign of terrorism and suffering (to be fair on both sides) was in effect for nothing. What a waste!!
I would beg to disagree on a few points you brought up. Imagine a group within a large community being barred from taking work wherever they can find it, reporting vicious beatings and being met with total indifference by the local Old Bill, being refused community housing for the flimsiest of reasons and even prevented from voting; and all because they follow a different version of the Christian religion. Now imagine this continuing for something like 45 years. That was the situation in Norn Iron.

Originally, all the folks wanted was a recognition of their human and social rights, but their demonstrations were brutally broken up and their pleas ignored. That’s when the IRA appeared on the scene, initially to protect these folks. The local Old Bill were exhausted and couldn’t handle the situation, because they weren’t prepared to compromise and actually listen to what the protesters had to say. So the British Army was called in to restore order.

Notwithstanding that the initial, correct, approach was subsequently perverted into slavish support of the status quo, with all the ensuing decades of heartache and sorrow that entailed, I believe you’re wrong when you say that nothing was achieved. For the Catholics in Norn Iron now have, more or less, equal standing with the FOBs in the social and human rights stakes. The situation is far from ideal, but it’s tons better than those desperate days back in the early Sixties.

MsG
 
#12
Bugsy said:
I would beg to disagree on a few points you brought up. Imagine a group within a large community being barred from taking work wherever they can find it, reporting vicious beatings and being met with total indifference by the local Old Bill, being refused community housing for the flimsiest of reasons and even prevented from voting; and all because they follow a different version of the Christian religion. Now imagine this continuing for something like 45 years. That was the situation in Norn Iron.

Originally, all the folks wanted was a recognition of their human and social rights, but their demonstrations were brutally broken up and their pleas ignored. That’s when the IRA appeared on the scene, initially to protect these folks. The local Old Bill were exhausted and couldn’t handle the situation, because they weren’t prepared to compromise and actually listen to what the protesters had to say. So the British Army was called in to restore order.

Notwithstanding that the initial, correct, approach was subsequently perverted into slavish support of the status quo, with all the ensuing decades of heartache and sorrow that entailed, I believe you’re wrong when you say that nothing was achieved.
I'm willing to bet that 95% of the outraged didn't have a clue about that. I can also picture a semi decent salesman working the United States collecting for the cause by romancing the story and collecting from the gullible who are willing to donate without question.
 
#13
Im not sure of your background KevinB, so until told otherwise ill take it at face value that you are a member of SF and have been involved with Noraid in the states.

what prompted you to get involved with the republican cause? was it purely ideological or were there other factors i.e. community expectation, unemployment etc?

What does involvement in SF entail? Is it like a member of the labour club, where you get the privelidge of cheap beer for a small annual fee (no questions asked) or is their an expectation of more hands on community involvement?

During the late 90's early noughties there was an accepted reality (when Mo Mowlem was in the chair) that SF would be involved in policing their own community, is this what is meant by community involvement? How do you view this approach?

What is the grass roots perception (ideology and propoganda aside) of the average Noraid volunteer of the troubles in NI? How frequently would a volunteer be allowed to go and see the results of their labour first hand?

Would Noraid volunteers or SF members in the states facilitate "RnR" visits for volunteers from the mother country? How often would these people talk frankly and openly of their experiences?

That will do for now (none of these are loaded questions i would just like to get a feel for things from the coal face)

many thanks
 
#14
Mighty_doh_nut said:
Bugsy said:
I would beg to disagree on a few points you brought up. Imagine a group within a large community being barred from taking work wherever they can find it, reporting vicious beatings and being met with total indifference by the local Old Bill, being refused community housing for the flimsiest of reasons and even prevented from voting; and all because they follow a different version of the Christian religion. Now imagine this continuing for something like 45 years. That was the situation in Norn Iron.

Originally, all the folks wanted was a recognition of their human and social rights, but their demonstrations were brutally broken up and their pleas ignored. That’s when the IRA appeared on the scene, initially to protect these folks. The local Old Bill were exhausted and couldn’t handle the situation, because they weren’t prepared to compromise and actually listen to what the protesters had to say. So the British Army was called in to restore order.

Notwithstanding that the initial, correct, approach was subsequently perverted into slavish support of the status quo, with all the ensuing decades of heartache and sorrow that entailed, I believe you’re wrong when you say that nothing was achieved.
I'm willing to bet that 95% of the outraged didn't have a clue about that. I can also picture a semi decent salesman working the United States collecting for the cause by romancing the story and collecting from the gullible who are willing to donate without question.
I'm lucky enough to be in the 5% of the outraged that remembers troops being given tea in catholic areas after Tony Benn sent the troops in in 1969 to protect the rights of the catholic minority. But when did the cups of tea stop? After the hard men started killing soldiers, or when the hard men turned the screw on their 'own' people for not fully support the 'cause'?
 
#15
The cups of tea are out of KevinBs control, no matter how much you'd like to see him hung for that too.
 
#16
I remember Kevin B and his posts.

I remember him getn shot down in flames.

It's a pity that Kevin B never stuck around to fight his own corner.

There are many of us that identify with the Republican cause in it's original "reason d'etre".

I was lucky enough to be brought up with both Catholic and Protestant grandparents and in-laws and what have you.

Despite their differences, they all rallied round to give us kids (40 odd year ago) the best they could.

I joined the Army in the 80's for several reasons..

1 - to find out for myself
2 - traditional industry was gone
3 - just to piss off both sides

Plus what Bugsy said
 
#17
Bugsy said:
The-Goose said:
As someone who served in Northern Ireland Londonderry, Forkhill and Belfast on 5 tours between 1973 and 1992, I have a fairly broad view ( which is correct albeit obviously biased) regarding Northern Ireland.

I would be very interested to hear any debate that espouses the common sense or humanity involved in the failed Terrorrist camapign that was operated by the "republican" elements in Northern Ireland in that period. Frankly I can see no justification in it - and worse yet after all this time Northern Ireland remains as it was in 1969, a staunch member and key element of the UK. Effectively the campaign of terrorism and suffering (to be fair on both sides) was in effect for nothing. What a waste!!
I would beg to disagree on a few points you brought up. Imagine a group within a large community being barred from taking work wherever they can find it, reporting vicious beatings and being met with total indifference by the local Old Bill, being refused community housing for the flimsiest of reasons and even prevented from voting; and all because they follow a different version of the Christian religion. Now imagine this continuing for something like 45 years. That was the situation in Norn Iron.

Originally, all the folks wanted was a recognition of their human and social rights, but their demonstrations were brutally broken up and their pleas ignored. That’s when the IRA appeared on the scene, initially to protect these folks. The local Old Bill were exhausted and couldn’t handle the situation, because they weren’t prepared to compromise and actually listen to what the protesters had to say. So the British Army was called in to restore order.

Notwithstanding that the initial, correct, approach was subsequently perverted into slavish support of the status quo, with all the ensuing decades of heartache and sorrow that entailed, I believe you’re wrong when you say that nothing was achieved. For the Catholics in Norn Iron now have, more or less, equal standing with the FOBs in the social and human rights stakes. The situation is far from ideal, but it’s tons better than those desperate days back in the early Sixties.

MsG
I agree with much of what you say Bugsy but I'm not sure that the IRA just "came onto the scene" post Catholic Civil rights demos.

The IRA ran a failed campaign in the mid to late 1950's and IMO regrouped and represented themselves in the same way that the Red Brigades and Baader Meinhof did in Germany. There were forces at work in funding the IRA that only sought to exploit the Catholic population for their own ends.

When you say the situation is far from ideal are you referring to the current threat level or the situation for the Catholic Community at large in NI?
 
#18
FARMBOY said:
Bugsy said:
The-Goose said:
As someone who served in Northern Ireland Londonderry, Forkhill and Belfast on 5 tours between 1973 and 1992, I have a fairly broad view ( which is correct albeit obviously biased) regarding Northern Ireland.

I would be very interested to hear any debate that espouses the common sense or humanity involved in the failed Terrorrist camapign that was operated by the "republican" elements in Northern Ireland in that period. Frankly I can see no justification in it - and worse yet after all this time Northern Ireland remains as it was in 1969, a staunch member and key element of the UK. Effectively the campaign of terrorism and suffering (to be fair on both sides) was in effect for nothing. What a waste!!
I would beg to disagree on a few points you brought up. Imagine a group within a large community being barred from taking work wherever they can find it, reporting vicious beatings and being met with total indifference by the local Old Bill, being refused community housing for the flimsiest of reasons and even prevented from voting; and all because they follow a different version of the Christian religion. Now imagine this continuing for something like 45 years. That was the situation in Norn Iron.

Originally, all the folks wanted was a recognition of their human and social rights, but their demonstrations were brutally broken up and their pleas ignored. That’s when the IRA appeared on the scene, initially to protect these folks. The local Old Bill were exhausted and couldn’t handle the situation, because they weren’t prepared to compromise and actually listen to what the protesters had to say. So the British Army was called in to restore order.

Notwithstanding that the initial, correct, approach was subsequently perverted into slavish support of the status quo, with all the ensuing decades of heartache and sorrow that entailed, I believe you’re wrong when you say that nothing was achieved. For the Catholics in Norn Iron now have, more or less, equal standing with the FOBs in the social and human rights stakes. The situation is far from ideal, but it’s tons better than those desperate days back in the early Sixties.

MsG
I agree with much of what you say Bugsy but I'm not sure that the IRA just "came onto the scene" post Catholic Civil rights demos.

The IRA ran a failed campaign in the mid to late 1950's and IMO regrouped and represented themselves in the same way that the Red Brigades and Baader Meinhof did in Germany. There were forces at work in funding the IRA that only sought to exploit the Catholic population for their own ends.

When you say the situation is far from ideal are you referring to the current threat level or the situation for the Catholic Community at large in NI?
Hmmm...

People/Groups that fund "a cause" throw money at it. Not because they beleive in it's aims, but simply because of the disruption they will cause.

The 'RA were a victim of this as were many other groups - catch 22.

But then again politics.. mujihadeen/mua-jihad-in/PLO blah blah..

One man's freedom fighter...

If you had a cause you wanted to champion and you needed funding??

Hindsight eh?

Think oureselves lucky we live in a "modern" awbdy has a voice society

edited for typing slower than I talk
 
#19
Airfix said:
I'm lucky enough to be in the 5% of the outraged that remembers troops being given tea in catholic areas after Tony Benn sent the troops in in 1969 to protect the rights of the catholic minority. But when did the cups of tea stop? After the hard men started killing soldiers, or when the hard men turned the screw on their 'own' people for not fully support the 'cause'?
Airfix, I know this may sound strange, but many folks in the ROI actually welcomed the deployment of British troops in Norn Iron as the right thing to do under the circumstances. That included my Grandda, who not only fought from 1914 to 1918 in the British Army, but was also a member of the “proper” IRA (and the IRB before that) and fought in the Irish Civil War. Although he added the caveat: “Iz long iz dey don’ send dem fuggin’ Blag ‘n’ Dans, udderwise as Oi’ll be up dere mesel’ an’ give ‘em what for, da barstids!”

I was actually serving when The Troubles kicked off (I joined in 1966) and initially all of us Micks in the British Army, and loads of others besides, contributed to the financial support of the IRA in Norn Iron. That turned to disillusionment in the early Seventies when it became apparent that they were intent on wreaking revenge for the Easter Uprising and also targeting the wrong people. So I suppose you could say that I was also an IRA supporter, at least for a time.

MsG
 
#20
It seems to me like KevinB was just a walt really. Maybe we should concentrate less on him and more on if there are any other users on ARRSE who feel the Republic/IRA cause was justified orwere activists or just sympathise with it. Let them explain their point of view, which will be rightly open to (harsh?) criticism, rather than fixate on one person who has seemingly disappeared from the forums.
 

Similar threads

Latest Threads

Top