A British soldiers view of Operation Cast Lead

#1
#3
serving member or ex member? good article, but surely breaches every rule in the book about contact with the media if he / she is still serving.
 

Thud

Old-Salt
#4
What a load of b*******.

Trying to excuse either side for what happened to the civilian population in Gaza during the recent incursion by the IDF is abhorrent in itself, comparing it to Iraq is downright insulting. The British and American forces were there under UN mandate, the Israelis had no such clearance.

Whereas Hamas needed to be brought down a peg or two, Israel has continually overstepped the mark in its dealings with the Palestinians, whilst at the same time emotionally blackmailing the rest of the World in to feeling sorry for them because of what happened in the Hitler's concentration camps.

There are now very few alive who remember the horror of those camps, and I doubt they would support what is being done in their name to the Palestinians. The Israelis have made the Palestinian enclaves in Gaza and on the West Bank little more than prison camps and have been systematically starving the populations there. That the Palestinians hit back is inevitable. That Iran helped them is also inevitable as they are always looking to poke their nose in to where it is not needed.

British and US forces worked in Iraq under the rule of international law. Israel and Hamas have not and BOTH need to be brought to book for what has happened in Gaza recently.
 
#5
IIRC the Iraq invastion occured before the UN mandate came in to effect, or was going to anyway.
 
#6
Thud said:
Trying to excuse either side for what happened to the civilian population in Gaza during the recent incursion by the IDF is abhorrent in itself, comparing it to Iraq is downright insulting. The British and American forces were there under UN mandate, the Israelis had no such clearance.
They weren't at first.

Edited: Chocolate_frog, it's also how I recall it.
 

Glad_its_all_over

ADC
Book Reviewer
#7
Thud said:
Lots of good old anti-Semitism disguised as moral outrage, including a loose grasp of international law snipped
Leaving aside one of the few issues the BNP, Al Qaida and the BBC agree on, how does that affect the article, which discussed the experience and techniques used by the chaps on the ground?
 

Thud

Old-Salt
#8
Glad_its_all_over said:
Thud said:
Lots of good old anti-Semitism disguised as moral outrage, including a loose grasp of international law snipped
Sorry - where do I mention in my reply the Jewish faith? What the Israeli government do is for their own national self interest, not for the good of the Jewish faith. That they claim affinity with the millions of Jews who were horrifically killed in the Nazi concentration camps is an insult to those Jews memory, especially looking at the Israeli Governments actions. As a result there are many Jews in the west who are ashamed or scared to openly declare their faith for fear of an anti Semitic backlash.

The same applies to Hamas - they attack Israel for their own purposes NOT for the good of the people of Gaza, whom they shamelessly and knowingly placed in the line of fire of an aggressive and intransigent military force.

Both sides need to be condemned for their actions as both sides have, in my opinion, committed war crimes.

I was not aware that UK/US forces did not enter Iraq under UN mandate and so withdraw that statement, but they remained there under International law and will soon be leaving (if reports are to be believed) under international law. Their actions were in line with International law, and where they were not and were exposed investigations and prosecutions followed.

Linking the feelings and actions of British troops to those of Israeli troops is inevitable, but misguided. At least we try to follow the rule of law.
 
#9
Thud said:
Glad_its_all_over said:
Thud said:
Lots of good old anti-Semitism disguised as moral outrage, including a loose grasp of international law snipped
Linking the feelings and actions of British troops to those of Israeli troops is inevitable, but misguided. At least we try to follow the rule of law.
Do we?

Apart from the use of cluster munitions in Iraqi Urban Areas.
Apart from the destruction of power supplies banned under Gen Con.
Apart from actually invading a sovereign nation.

JANUARY 2005: Three British soldiers appeared at a court martial in Osnabrück, accused of abuse at Camp Breadbasket near Basra in 2003. Charges dropped against one soldier who pleaded guilty to assault, while two others were found guilty of mistreatment. They received sentences of up to two years. Photographs were taken by a soldier who was sentenced to nine months.
JULY 2005: Seven British soldiers were charged with "negligently performing a duty" after the death of hotel receptionist, allegedly after being beaten by troops. The case is outstanding.
SEPTEMBER 2005: Seven paras accused of murdering an 18-year-old in 2003 go on trial. In November, all seven defendants are cleared on grounds of insufficient evidence..

Not to mention the young Iraqi lads who were beat on camera in Al Amarah..

"Naughty little boys mwuhahahahahah" I believe was the commentary.

Don't be to quick to beat your own drum Thud. The Brits are not the Saints we portray ourselves as.

"Common view seems to be that international law is honoured more in it's breach than in it's observance, and since it seems to be broken so much it can hardly be said to exist at all. Moreover there is little evidence that international law restrains states from pursuing their interests in the international system..."

Ken Mathews
"International law is the vanishing point of law"

Sir Hersch Luaterpacht.
 
#10
Glad_its_all_over said:
Thud said:
Lots of good old anti-Semitism disguised as moral outrage, including a loose grasp of international law snipped
Leaving aside one of the few issues the BNP, Al Qaida and the BBC agree on, how does that affect the article, which discussed the experience and techniques used by the chaps on the ground?
I do not agree with what Thud is saying but I think your leap to accuse him of anti-semitism is symptomatic of the sort of "label-tossing" that occurs too often these days and helps to stifle healthy debate.

Just thought I would mention it!
 
#11
Dontdreamit said:
Don't be to quick to beat your own drum Thud. The Brits are not the Saints we portray ourselves as.

I am not saying we are saints - but we do try and, in many cases, investigations do follow even if prosecutions do not, and where prosecutions do follow where the case is proven punishment occurs.

With both Hamas and the IDF it appears (appears because the case has to be proven) that they deliberately carried out actions that are in breach of international law.

We shall have to wait out and see what comes - you never know it could follow what has happened in some UK/US prosecutions and they get off with nothing.
 
#12
Thud said:
Dontdreamit said:
Don't be to quick to beat your own drum Thud. The Brits are not the Saints we portray ourselves as.

I am not saying we are saints - but we do try and, in many cases, investigations do follow even if prosecutions do not, and where prosecutions do follow where the case is proven punishment occurs.

With both Hamas and the IDF it appears (appears because the case has to be proven) that they deliberately carried out actions that are in breach of international law.

We shall have to wait out and see what comes - you never know it could follow what has happened in some UK/US prosecutions and they get off with nothing.
Unlike the Brits and yanks who tortured their prisoners by accident.

:roll:
 
#14
londonirish said:
Dontdreamit said:
Accuracy
Brevity
Clarity

Bags of common sense.

No way a Corps member.

Fvcking walt! :D
Ok, on to more serious stuff, Dontdreamit, who is that girl at the bottom of your messages?

I want to marry her
My Ex... You're welcome to her. I gave her aids so don't want to risk her giving me it back.
 
#15
The problem when discussing Israel and Palestine is that so very few of us, I hope, live under the every-day conditions that pertain there. What would we do if rockets were landing daily on Dover; our neighbours openly declared their aim of wiping us off the face of the earth? Imagine the great majority of us lived in resettlement camps with open sewage running down the roads and agitators constantly telling us we were robbed of our heritage. Those who shared our faith ignoring our plight. And not just today but yesterday and yesterday and yesterday and tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. Look at all the fuss we make about a few immigrants coming here. If people are brought up as animals, they respond as animals. The Israelis have been fighting as they do for a very long time. It has prevented them being "driven into the sea" as their opponents pray for. They cannot turn the other cheek. The Palestinians do not have the resources or support to wage anything other than terrorist style warfare. They have tried open warfare and been defeated every time.
This is nothing to do with Europe 1935-1945. Both sides have tried peace agreements and, never mind who broke the conditions, have seen them come to naught.
The more noise made by outsiders merely makes things worse. It will not happen but one solution would be to form something we might call a Protectorate Force. It would go into both lands under the same conditions and make the changes necessary to stabilise things. Forget the past. Decide the best solution and implement it. Drag both into the 21st Century and out of the Middle Ages. The land can be made to blossom and not left to goats to graze. What Great Britain of the past did to the colonies and dependencies in showing them an alternative to cannibalism and poverty.
The sturm and drang of any debate indicates this solution will never come about. The proposers do not really understand the mind set of either side. We need to re-educate them to ours.
 
#16
Iran has never claimed to 'wipe Israel off the map'.

The sentence was spoken in Farsi and the correct translation is 'They should vanish from the pages of time'.

Nothing like context is there?

As for yourself Thud -

If UK Forces are being held to account for their actions if in breach of International Law, who is charging them with illegal occupation of Iraq?
 
#17
The confusion about what was said is widespread as shown here. The phrase you refer to was certainly used by President Iran - I doubt if he was the first and that 'drive into the sea' or 'wipe off the face of the earth' have never been expressed by the firebrands in this dispute. Any case, it was certainly threatening and capable of causing concern.
 
#18
There is no confusion. He did not say it.

Look at 4:10 onwards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmCIw5lPi-M&feature=related

Just to confirm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM7fbFJGFTk&feature=related

25,000 Jews live in Iran in peace. There are 20 Synagogues in Tehran. Because the Jewish people do not have enough supporters to win in an election, the Iranian Government reserve a seat specifically for them in the Government.

American Jews have been raising money and offering each Iranian Jew $10,000 to move to Israel. They have largely refused the offer and remain in Iran free from oppresion or persecution.
 
#19
OK - sorry to get pedantic. In my first post, I did not claim that the phrase was used by the man from Iran. You assumed this. There are better forms of exercise for the brain other than jumping to erroneous conclusions.
The video shows that the phrase had currency and I asked that my reader put themselves in the position of being under this threat. If I am in fear that aliens will land and carry me off, I do not need to know the name of which actual alien will do this - the foreboding is sufficient without my knowing the author.
So - do not let your prejudice lead you up false alleys where you put words into my mouth that have never been there. I will assume your apology for this sort of conduct.
As for the 25,000 Jews remaining in Iran and being supported by the government. They serve the position of hostages. We have seen what Iranian mobs do when demonstrating against 'the Great Satan' or Mohammed cartoons. What prospects for the Jewish residents if one of these groups were directed at Friday prayers to rid the country of non-believers? Also, just as a balance to your way of thinking, there are about 2.16 million Muslims living in Israel (see http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.culture.israel/2008-12/msg00108.html). If the Israeli Jews are such terrible people, how is this?
 
#20
OldRedCap said:
The confusion about what was said is widespread as shown here. The phrase you refer to was certainly used by President Iran - I doubt if he was the first and that 'drive into the sea' or 'wipe off the face of the earth' have never been expressed by the firebrands in this dispute. Any case, it was certainly threatening and capable of causing concern.
Let's revisit what you said you pedantic tw@t and you will recieve no apology.

You stated there was 'confusion' about the comments. There was none.

1-0 to me.

You claim that the Iraeli's are hostages. They have been offered substantial sums of money to leave, which they refused citing to the world's press, happiness in their current location.

2-0 to me.

Your a c0ck.

3-0 to me....

I could go on.

Take your ridiculous Israeli apologetics and go elsewhere.
 

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