A Bit of Perspective After "Hiroshima Day"

#1
Although this has been the subject (originally a bit tongue in cheek) of a thread on NAAFI (http://www.arrse.co.uk/t138962/), I thought given the horrific subject matter of these films, it was inappropriate to stay in that forum so I am posting here:

YouTube - ‪Rape of Nanking Part I Atrocities in Asia Nanjing Massacre‬‎

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqH47MIpuoA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hOIpDSWySw

YouTube - ‪Unit 731 Japanese Human Medical Experiments (2/5)‬‎

YouTube - ‪Unit 731 Japanese Human Medical Experiments (4/5)‬‎

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1phs3glrZQ&feature=related

YouTube - ‪Unit 731 Japanese Human Medical Experiments (3/5)‬‎ (the end is a good reminder how nations can rationalize away the need for justice with perceived expediency as reflected in the failure of the US to prosecute all those involved in these atrocities due to their "greater value" to the US for the scientific "brilliance.")

This of course may not sit well with some of the revisionist "historians" who contort the facts of these horrors and similar ones in Germany to suit their post-modern template of "blame America first and the rest of the West second."

As many have warned over the ages, if we fail to know and appreciate the lessons of history we are doomed to repeat them.

On the other hand, we must not fall into the trap of thinking that any society is immune from such things by assuming there was something innate in the Japanese or German genetic code that "caused" these things. It is a universal human weakness.
 
#2
Yet again, a limp attempt by the Americans to justify the mass killings of civilians who they regarded as untermensch. And lets not forget, the morally superior US was going to bomb Japanese cities with chemical weapons in the run up to the invasion and airly talked about the 5 MILLION civilians they would kill i those raids.

…"Gas attacks of the size and intensity recommended on these 250 square miles of urban population," the US Army report declared, "might easily kill 5,000,000 people and injure that many more." In the first attack, which would be launched 15 days before the Kyushu landings, American bombers would drench much of Tokyo and other cities in an early morning attack with 54,000 tons of lethal phosgene gas. Tokyo would be the largest poison gas target, because an "attack of this size against an urban city of large population should be used to initiate gas warfare."…

American Leaders Planned Poison Gas Attack Against Japan


Here's some of your handiwork

[video=youtube;iUNIdGmYDzg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUNIdGmYDzg&feature=related[/video]
 
#3
Just as well they used the Atomic bomb then?

My late uncle was in the Far East at the time, and the planning for the amphibious landings to retake the Malay peninsula anticipated 60% casaulties. The Kamikaze attacks proved how irational the Japanese were, and the huge loss of life (including Japanese) that would be involved in invading Japan.
 

the_boy_syrup

LE
Book Reviewer
#4
Yet again, a limp attempt by the Americans to justify the mass killings of civilians who they regarded as untermensch.

I always take the view if you act like untermensh don't be suprised if people treat you like untermensh
I am under no doubt if the Germans or Japenese could have got their hands on an A Bomb they would have had no qualms about using it against us
 
#5
I always take the view if you act like untermensh don't be suprised if people treat you like untermensh
I am under no doubt if the Germans or Japenese could have got their hands on an A Bomb they would have had no qualms about using it against us
TBS: Just more of the "template" mindset.
 
#6
yes the allies treated the japanese particulary badly having to offer leave and ice cream to get any of the admitidly few prisoners taken to the rear safely only one example.
but considering how badly the japanese treated enemy forces civillians anyone who had the misfortune to be in range tough shit tojo.
don't start a gobal war
 
#7
I always take the view if you act like untermensh don't be suprised if people treat you like untermensh
I am under no doubt if the Germans or Japenese could have got their hands on an A Bomb they would have had no qualms about using it against us
It was nothing to do with behaving like untermensch and everything to do with American pride having been hugely butt hurt by (a) Pesky little nips launching a 'sneak attack' (the outrage! Naughty yellow men using surprise as a tactic!),on their fleet and sinking it, (b) Said little nips who couldn't see turning up mob handed with better planes and ship than theirs and promptly shooting all the US planes down and sinking their ships.
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
#8
The A bombs precipitated an immediate end to a long, ghastly, cruel and wasteful war and thereby SAVED hundreds of thousands of Allied lives, including those of the starving, maltreated surviving FEPoWs who were all going to be murdered; and the lives of a lot of Asiatic slave labour; - and a lot of Jap lives too but personally I don't care about those; they had forfeited any right to consideration by their military's unspeakably appalling behaviour from 1937 on. Get real, Semper. The A bombs saved those Japs who would have had to have been gassed to clear the decks for victory.
 
#9
yes the allies treated the japanese particulary badly having to offer leave and ice cream to get any of the admitidly few prisoners taken to the rear safely only one example.
but considering how badly the japanese treated enemy forces civillians anyone who had the misfortune to be in range tough shit tojo.
don't start a gobal war
It's a bit rich the US climbing aboard the Nanking Outrage Bus 5 years after the event when their diplomatic response at the time, (1937), could be at best described as 'impassive',
 
#10
The A bombs precipitated an immediate end to a long, ghastly, cruel and wasteful war .
The A Bombs had nothing to do with the Japanese surrendering, they were willing to fight on. It was a 1.5 Million Russians coming mob handed into Manchuria on August 9, 1945 in Operation August Storm and utterly routing and destroying the crack Kwantung Army they were relying on to defend the homeland that made them surrender.
 
#11
One of the things that has always fascinated/appalled me about the Japanese is the complete sea-change that they underwent in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries from a vibrant and forward-looking society that gained the respect and admiration even of its enemies to one of the most monstrous regimes of the 20th Century. Comparing the experiences of Taiwan (ceded 1895) to that of Korea (occupied 1905) shows two sides to the nation that are hard to reconcile in light of what we now know about their conduct.
 
#12
One of the things that has always fascinated/appalled me about the Japanese is the complete sea-change that they underwent in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries from a vibrant and forward-looking society that gained the respect and admiration even of its enemies to one of the most monstrous regimes of the 20th Century. Comparing the experiences of Taiwan (ceded 1895) to that of Korea (occupied 1905) shows two sides to the nation that are hard to reconcile in light of what we now know about their conduct.

The Japanese's great national characteristic is they never settle for being anything other than the best at what they do.

When they get good direction, they produce Hondas, when they get bad direction, the produce the Mitsubishi Zero and sink loads of ships.

A lot of the bad treatment Western POW's got can be traced back to the massive insult to Japanese pride when we renaged on our treaties with them under American duress in the 20's. The Japanese were extremely proud the way they had come from being a backward country to being a trusted allie of the worlds greatest power pre WWI.

The Japanese treated German 'Western' POW's very well during WWI, they were seen as 'honourable'. After the put down they received after WWI, 'Thanks for fighting the Germans for us, now **** off', they regarded all Westerners as dishonrourable, and in Japanese culture ,being dishonourable is the worst crime imaginable.
 
#13
The Japanese's great national characteristic is they never settle for being anything other than the best at what they do.

When they get good direction, they produce Hondas, when they get bad direction, the produce the Mitsubishi Zero and sink loads of ships.

A lot of the bad treatment Western POW's got can be traced back to the massive insult to Japanese pride when we renaged on our treaties with them under American duress in the 20's. The Japanese were extremely proud the way they had come from being a backward country to being a trusted allie of the worlds greatest power pre WWI.

The Japanese treated German 'Western' POW's very well during WWI, they were seen as 'honourable'. After the put down they received after WWI, 'Thanks for fighting the Germans for us, now **** off', they regarded all Westerners as dishonrourable, and in Japanese culture ,being dishonourable is the worst crime imaginable.
From personal observation (and I'm not by any means an expert) the Japanese are more of a conservative nation than most and prefer a Japanese solution to the best solution. Their business culture for one thing doesn't like change.

A desire for a 'Place in the Sun' might have been the driver behind their desire for Empire, but that doesn't explain the way they acted as conquerors.
 
#14
Methinks Semper_flexibilis is having a Ashie/Sven la-la moment and no amount of reasoning and actuality will change his love-in for the Nips and his dislike of the Americans. Personally I am glad the A bombs were dropped on the evil basterds thereby saving countless allied lives.
 
#15
From personal observation (and I'm not by any means an expert) the Japanese are more of a conservative nation than most and prefer a Japanese solution to the best solution. Their business culture for one thing doesn't like change.

A desire for a 'Place in the Sun' might have been the driver behind their desire for Empire, but that doesn't explain the way they acted as conquerors.
Indeed, and it takes a lot to make them change, but when they do, they don;t hold back, it tends to be a 180 flip and becomes a national mission statement.

At the mo, the Japanese are going through a pacifist phase, but if they decide to get all militaristic again it will make for a very 'exciting' Far East. They spend less than 1% of GDP on defence and have a hugely capable 'self defence force' that could wipe the floor with most of the worlds militaries. Up that to 6% and get Sony churning out cruise missiles and a lot of sphincters would be all a pucker.


Akio Morita's book Made in Japan gives a good insight into the Japanese mindset
 
#16
The A bombs precipitated an immediate end to a long, ghastly, cruel and wasteful war and thereby SAVED hundreds of thousands of Allied lives, including those of the starving, maltreated surviving FEPoWs who were all going to be murdered; and the lives of a lot of Asiatic slave labour; - and a lot of Jap lives too but personally I don't care about those; they had forfeited any right to consideration by their military's unspeakably appalling behaviour from 1937 on. Get real, Semper. The A bombs saved those Japs who would have had to have been gassed to clear the decks for victory.
This was the view my parents always held.
 
#17
Having met quite a few chaps over the years who were either Prisoners of the japs or fought against them, I have not met ONE who had any time for them! One chaps experience in Burma having heard & seen the remains of a couple of his colleagues who had the misfortune to be captured by them, was equally chilling! His battalion plus a few squadrons of flame throwing tanks & artillery, was given the job of clearing one of the islands just off the Burmese coast! There were estimated to be 5,000 to 6,000 Japanese troops defending the island! NOT ONE jAPANESE PRISONER was taken! No one turned a hair, they had become like rabid animals and were treated like them and disposed of out of hand!!
They reaped what they had sown! The 2 nuclear weapons saved literally MILLIONS OF LIVES by bringing WW2 to an end!
 
#18
Speaking as a half Jap/Englishman I have to say that I have nothing but shame for what Japan did during the war.
My Japense side (maternal) did their damndest to get away from Japan, because they were disgusted too. That said, there is nothing I can do about my ethnic makeup and wouldn't change it if I could. Japan has moved on, when I've visited it it was very westernised and very much a first world country. In fact, there's a tangible sense of shame when they are reminded about their deeds in the war.
 
#19
Let me also remove another page out of the "playbook" of those who cannot seem to bring themselves to even take a peek beyond their evil US/a bit less evil "West" template--my only intention in posting this information was to put things in a bit of context of the times in which the decisions were made that are now so easily criticiz(s)ed in the perfect vision of hindsight and the ever so enlightened age in which we live where it is de rigeur to find fault in everything the US (and the "west") has ever done and especially is now doing.

I am in no way minimiz(s)ing the death and destruction on all sides in WWII and every war for that matter and that is one reason I rather prefer such unpleasantness be avoided when possible but not at all costs as some seem to think should be the standard. My own view of human nature--again one quyite unpopular with the post-modern secularists is that the inherent propensity of evil of human nature will always be something with which civiliz(s)ed societies must deal.
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
#20
The easiest and cheapest way to avoid war is to make it manifestly clear that it won't pay. Si vis pacem para bellum. Cheapest because, as we discovered in 1939, when you fail to deter your enemy the resulting cost is so huge as to be unimaginable.
 

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