7.92 x 57 cartridge identification

#1
I was rummaging through the ammunition draw at the club on Friday, and I came across the following unidentified 7.92 x 57 cartridges. Can any of the spotters on here help me to work out what on earth they are?

Firstly (and probably the most simple, since I think I've work this one out already):

Brass case, tombak/copper jacket.
Head stamp: above primer -- K44
below primer -- 8IIZ
all text oriented in the same direction.

I suspect that this is BESA ammunition, Kynoch 1944, nitrocellulose propellant.

Secondly:

Copper-washed steel case, jacket is presumably also copper-washed steel (since it has exactly the same tint as the case so is probably not pure copper)
primer is staked in 3 places 120° apart, and there is a green lacquer around the primer.

Head stamp: text is arranged around the primer with the foot of the characters pointing towards the primer, and reads -- 38 38 P370 VIII w1
the roman numerals and the number 1 have a very heavy serif.

The cartridges are on a Mauser-type but phosphated clip marked P32769 with the letter P having a heavy serif and being moderately ornate.

Any ideas?
 
#2
I would agree with your estimate of the first round.

The second one could be German, however copper wash signified a proof round in some marking schemes I seem to remember..

Are there lines between the markings, and is the top of the primer rounded or flat?

I will try and get into the historical library this weekend and have a look...
 
#3
HE117 said:
I would agree with your estimate of the first round.

The second one could be German, however copper wash signified a proof round in some marking schemes I seem to remember..

Are there lines between the markings, and is the top of the primer rounded or flat?

I will try and get into the historical library this weekend and have a look...
Off the top of my head I seem to remember that the top of the primer was flat, particularly as it was staked in 3 places rather than crimped.

There are no lines between the markings, which are not arranged in obvious quarters or thirds (there is a reasonable gap at the bottom directly opposite the P370 but it is not a full quarter of the circumference)

Would the clip not suggest that they are not proof rounds, although of course they could have been clipped up later?.
 
#4
I have a manufacturer now for the mystery 7.92:

P370 = Hugo Schneider A.G., Werk Berlin-Köpenick (wb)

No idea what the leading "38 38" or the trailing "VIII w1" mean though...
 
#5
Surely as long as it goes Bang when required it doesn't really matter?
 
#6
Apparently the P-code dates it to 1937-1941.

Could "38 38" then be 1938 week 38?
Would "VIII” logically mean 8mm (although didn't the Germans call it 7.92?)
 
#7
I've also found a reference to "3 39 VIII” with the same manufacturer's code, so I would wager that it is actually week-year.

And yes, smudge, it does matter -- for a start it pleases anoraks like me, secondly the cartridges could have collector value, and thirdly they might be proof rounds so not a good idea to rattle through a wartime rifle in rapidfire...
 

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