7.63 better than 5.56 ? What about 4.5 against .303?

Discussion in 'Weapons, Equipment & Rations' started by old_bloke, Oct 27, 2009.

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  1. Two points I have been pondering

    First : There have been many, many, many posts and threads about 7.62 against 5.56 with a new one this week. :roll:

    Just wondering if this is a modem phenomenon or did the old and bold way back when discus the merits for example of the sharp point heavyweight MK 1 spear being much better than that newer “allegedly “ faster bow and arrow in taking down a woolly Mammoth.

    In reality does anybody know of old and bold who compared the new lightweight Enfield with the far better “man stopper” Lee-Metford Rifles or the better Zulu stopper the Martini-Metford & Martini-Enfield or by 1914 were the old and bold in pastures green.

    Or what about that lightweight Bren , give me a Lewis anyday :D Anybody know ?

    Second : Somebody mentioned the Tommy Gun as a weapon to reintroduce :?

    Similar subject ie old weapons or using the enemnys weapons , I cannot recall seeing many photos of Tommies in WW2 using other AXIS weapons. Now I recon if Tommy was up the sharp end and got his hands on a MP 40 (9x19) mm as well as his issued Sten (9x19mm) then Tommy would have used the MP40 . Ammo same and could shoot out to 100 to 150 meters .

    Is the lack of photographic history of this for the Tommy (against loads of pics of Germans using Russian,Uk,US kit liberated on the battlefied and Russians and US troops doing the same) due to due to the Axis kit being rubbish or fact that most of the photos were taken byMilitary photographers from the Army Film and Photo unit and being unpublished due to the negatinve propaganda such pics showed?

    Anybody know if this was the reason why?
  2. There are 2 questions here; let's deal with them individually:

    Calibre -- yes, this has happened every time there has been a reduction in calibre. I'm not sure if it happened in the transition from Brown Bess to 577, but it certainly happened in the transition from 577 Snider to 45 Martini, and again from 45 Martini to 303 (interestingly also on the north-west Frontier, i.e. modern-day Afghanistan).

    Battlefield pickups -- the Germans, surprisingly, suffered enormous shortages of arms and pressed practically everything into service. I believe it was not uncommon for e.g. mortar crews to be armed with pistols only. The allies did not suffer from similar shortages.

    The MP 40 is not really in any meaningful sense more accurate than the STEN, the amount that the weapon moves between trigger release and bullet exiting the barrel being enormous.
  3. I doubt that there was an excessive degree of embarrassment over photos of British troops using Axis small arms, since there are quite a few pictures of them using more substantial bits of kit. The early victories in the desert saw loads of Italian kit used by the British: MT was perhaps the most useful, but at least one RHA regt (106th) was officially equipped with Breda 20mm AT/AA guns, a weapon which LRDG/SAS supposedly also liked. The Aussies famously had their captured Italian tanks at Tobruk, and the Guards Armoured, in the winter of 44-45 had at least one Panther.

    I did have the privilege, years ago, of knowing an elderly former WG RSM who had joined the battalion just in time to use the new-fangled Bren on its field trials on summer manouevres. He was certainly an enthusiast :)

    Perhaps the clearest example of a historical argument was the debate over the Vickers vs the Lewis in 1915/16, when the former was taken away from the infantry and given to the MGC; an exact forerunner of the GPMG vs LSW arguments of more recent years.
  4. In "A drop too many" BY Col John Frost MC he recounts his Bn having MG34 /42 in all sections by hte time they got to Tobruk.
  5. Spears vs Swords. Or, it could this be yet another wind-up!
  6. And due to more government defence cuts, you are now not allowed to shout "BANG" (in ANY calibre) three weeks in the month.
  7. WW1 became a stagnant war, heavy belt-fed SF machine guns were the front-line weapons. 47rd drum Lewis guns and it's perchant for jamming were not. And a MG 42 at Tobruk, Haaah, but happy to be proved wrong.
  8. And the Hoplites (I think) thought the solution was Spear AND sword.
  9. Surely you mean Tunis and not Tobruk?
  10. I've seen one account that states that the use of captured MG42s was banned in NW Europe (post D-Day) because by that stage the allied FOOs were getting quite adept at locating enemy weapons by sound ranging and then stonking them....
  11. Yes, my mistake. (I knew what I meant! :) )