5 November in the UK and 4 November in Russia

#1
I don't expect any answers. It is just to inform you.

Previous year a new 'national holiday' was invented in Russia 4 November and like Gunpowder Plot it has its roots in events happened in 17century (in 1611).

4 November is a day of Kazan Icon of God Mother and that day Polish troops surrended and left the Kremlin in Moscow. For centuries it was not celebrated but last year 7 November a day of Great October revolution/Bolshevik plot was officially 'de-holidised'.

But the effect was quite unexpected for the authorities. Russian nationalists used this possibility to stage loud marches. This year all demonstrations are stricktly banned 4 November. Though nationalists plan to start 'Russian march' 4 November under slogan 'Russia for Russians'.

From formal point of view there is a freedom of demonstrations in Russia. Organisers only have to inform authorities but this year demonstrations during the national holiday are banned.

Do you think that EU should accuse Russia for violation of principles of democracy?
 
#2
Celebrating at this time of year is tradtional dates back to pagan times
if its an excuse for a party why not?Wether it be the revloution or kicking the poles out.If its an excuse for violence then probably not a good idea.
Thats my opinion.
 
#3
KGB_resident said:
Do you think that EU should accuse Russia for violation of principles of democracy?
Sergey.

A more pertinent question would be "do you imagine that the EU - or anyone else for that matter - actually cares what Russia does?".

Quite frankly Sergey, ever since the now defunct USSR removed several hundred divisions from the Eastern Bloc, and your country collapsed, no one cares anymore.
 
#4
KGB_resident said:
Do you think that EU should accuse Russia for violation of principles of democracy?
Not really Sergy Russia seems to be moving happily towards a more Tsarist political structure. The bedlam of the Yeltsin years seem to have turned many Russians away from weak democratic structures. Its not so much the prevention of street protest that worries me its the endemic corruption of many areas of the State. Russia biggest weakness.
 
#5
Gallowglass - I have to disagree, Russia is a very powerful union impossing sanctions on it's neighbours and with a shrewd leader.

Underestimating a force as strong as russia is not the best way to approach a future ally!

In recent years it has become apparent, that Russia is full of corruption and struggles with its armed forces.... do we see a comparison here, looks like new labour has been taking lessons - read Janes a bit more often and perhaps you would realise what is going on - the sun does you no favours!

Apart from which, the 4th or 5th - it is nice to see that Russia is picking up on 'old' traditions.
 
#6
gallowglass said:
A more pertinent question would be "do you imagine that the EU - or anyone else for that matter - actually cares what Russia does?"
This is plain daft evidently you didn't notice the Gas crisis in the Ukraine knocking into the EU's energy supplies? Nor the fact that Russia will be suppliying up to 30% of the UK's gas by next year? Nor all of those Russian weapons that Iran etc keep buying?

More to the point - 'do you imagine that the EU - or anyone else for that matter - actually cares what Britain does?"
 
#7
me n bee said:
Gallowglass - I have to disagree, Russia is a very powerful union impossing sanctions on it's neighbours and with a shrewd leader.

Underestimating a force as strong as russia is not the best way to approach a future ally!

In recent years it has become apparent, that Russia is full of corruption and struggles with its armed forces.... do we see a comparison here, looks like new labour has been taking lessons - read Janes a bit more often and perhaps you would realise what is going on - the sun does you no favours!

Apart from which, the 4th or 5th - it is nice to see that Russia is picking up on 'old' traditions.

Alright, alright, so I was having a crack at our resident (or should that be rezident?) Chekist. :wink:

Yes, I do know that Russia is still able to exert a great deal of influence over its former satellites, but at the same time this is hardly a matter of great import for the EU; even if it were, I don't see that the Russians should overly concern themselves with what the EU thinks of them, as the EU is, if anything, even more politically incoherent than Russia. That said, I still believe that Russia should move into a closer association with the EU - at least, unlike the Turks, they are ostensibly and historically European.

While the Russian Armed Forces are not what they once were, they still have a number of advantages over Western forces - namely massive numbers and the political will (or more properly indifference towards) to sustain casualties.

I'm skeptical about these various 'traditions' that post-Communist Russia keeps reviving or thinking up. This started with Yeltsin's hijacking of the former Imperial Coat-of-Arms for those of the state, and has continued through such measures as the reburial of the former Imperial family. There is a great deal to be proud of and worthy of reviving from the forgotten passageways of Russian history and heritage, but I hardly think that a former officer of the KGB (itself hardly a bastion of Russian heritage) is the best person to head this Russian cultural revival.

"Shrewd" doesn't even begin to describe Putin - how many times have those ice-cold eyes of his watched as some 'dissident' underwent questioning during his KGB service? Pure speculation on my part of course...
 
#8
armchair_jihad said:
gallowglass said:
A more pertinent question would be "do you imagine that the EU - or anyone else for that matter - actually cares what Russia does?"
This is plain daft evidently you didn't notice the Gas crisis in the Ukraine knocking into the EU's energy supplies? Nor the fact that Russia will be suppliying up to 30% of the UK's gas by next year? Nor all of those Russian weapons that Iran etc keep buying?

More to the point - 'do you imagine that the EU - or anyone else for that matter - actually cares what Britain does?"
Like I said, my original posting was more in jest at Sergey....however, your last point is pertinent. Then again, Sergey was, as ever, coat-trailing.
 
#9
I agree Gallowglass, it is a dangerous and volatile country but you forget one thing.... GAS, they have a form of monopoly which could cripple us in the future!

There is money in Russia..... just needs to be regulated so that people get paid wages and not a pittance....
 
#10
I have to say at least Putin does not pretend to be everybodys creepy best mate like Bliar - that must be refreshing and he also seems to have a workable knowledge of history unlike our PM whose grasp was once memorably described as limited to a book of quotations.

Another plus is that they are nominally a Christian Country.
 
#11
In fact (personal opinion) they are very much against the muslims and it doesn't surprise me anymore at their approach to Chechnya!!!
 
#12
me n bee said:
In fact (personal opinion) they are very much against the muslims and it doesn't surprise me anymore at their approach to Chechnya!!!
Yep I agree, in retrospect I can now understand the tactics that they used that I used to strongly object to.

Best keep quite about this though PTP is on the prowl.


ssshhhhh
 
#13
Freedom of speech in Russia is like many things there, in theory good but in practise abysmal, "you can say whatever you like........ so long as we like it too"

Another example where I've had experience, Emission regulations, Russia has some of the most severe emission regulations in the world, problem is the permitted levels are below the ranges of any monitoring equipment available on the market, so what do they do? Come up with sensible levels? Nope they just ignore them completely, but carry on to spout off that they've got the "most stringent emission laws in the world".

Wierd country 8O
 
#14
There is one thing having laws and another thing enforcing them!
 
#15
me n bee said:
There is one thing having laws and another thing enforcing them!
It is a well-known saying

В России строгость законов компенсируется необязательностью их исполнения.

In Russia toughness of laws is compensating by their non-obligatoriness.

I would like to thank all contributors for replays. Thank you Gallowglass. Be sure, I understand your joke, always understand.

Of course Russia is not in any way an unimportant country. It is the only one that is a real obstacle for absulute US domination. Our American friends promote an idea of democratic values around the World with enthusiastic support from EU. But this 'promoting of democracy' is very selective.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6111188.stm

Moscow police are stepping up security after organisers of a nationalist "Russian march" vowed to defy a ban by Mayor Yuri Luzhkov.
Police quoted by the Itar-Tass news agency said they would mount extra patrols and deploy 6,500 police officers in the capital on Saturday.

Mr Luzhkov said on Tuesday that the march would be banned, to prevent any repeat of last year's demonstration.

Hundreds of ultra-nationalists shouted far-right slogans in Moscow a year ago.
...for example 'Russia is Russian land'. But you may ask who is 'Russian' from point of view of Russian nationalists. 'Russiana' are: ethnically Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians, representatives of any other ethnical group that speak Russian, regard Russian culture as their own culture. chief organiser of 'Russian match' - former colonel Viktor Alksnis (ethnically Latvian).

PS. Btw, what is a definition of Britishness or Englishness?
 
#16
Ethnicity - We are British because we have a British Passport but your nationality is as you wish really, I am English as I was born here but I hold a British Passport.

A Pakistani with a British Passport is Pakistani/British. and so on.

Much in the way, that a member of the Soviet union was a soviet first and a national second. I remember the hardship that ethnic Germnas faced when confronted by 'true blood' Russians when they had to present their Passports or driving licences.

Also that in the Soviet Union ethnic Germans were refused posts of certain responsibility.
 
#17
me n bee said:
Ethnicity - We are British because we have a British Passport but your nationality is as you wish really, I am English as I was born here but I hold a British Passport.

A Pakistani with a British Passport is Pakistani/British. and so on.

Much in the way, that a member of the Soviet union was a soviet first and a national second.
...abroad they all were Russians - Armenians, Tatars or Ukrainians.

me n bee said:
I remember the hardship that ethnic Germnas faced when confronted by 'true blood' Russians when they had to present their Passports or driving licences.

Also that in the Soviet Union ethnic Germans were refused posts of certain responsibility.
I was born in the Soviet Union and I don't remember anything of this sort.

Tomsk area (in the West Siberia) is a homeland of my parents. Viktor Kress (ethnically German) is a governor of Tomsk area now.



In the Soviet times mr.Kress was a prominent Comunist leader in Tomsk region. Btw, my uncle (who belonged to Communist leadership of Tomsk region too) knew him well. Btw, my uncle (and my father) ethnically are half Poles half Ukrainians. But both regard themselves as 100% Russian.

Another prominent ethnically German is Eduard Rossel (now a governor of Sverdlovsk area - very important region in Ural).



In Soviet times he occupied prominent posts in Soviet industry and was a speaker of local parliament (council) of Sverdlovsk area.

There was (I confirm it) a state sponsored anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union but the Germans were treated equally with Russinas. Btw, my son had a friend then he was a pupil - Alexander Schwoll. He didn't speak German so he was a German only nominally.
 
#18
KGB_resident said:
me n bee said:
I remember the hardship that ethnic Germnas faced when confronted by 'true blood' Russians when they had to present their Passports or driving licences.

Also that in the Soviet Union ethnic Germans were refused posts of certain responsibility.
I was born in the Soviet Union and I don't remember anything of this sort.
Sergy I suspect that me and bee is referring to the pre / post WWII period
 
#19
armchair_jihad said:
KGB_resident said:
me n bee said:
I remember the hardship that ethnic Germnas faced when confronted by 'true blood' Russians when they had to present their Passports or driving licences.

Also that in the Soviet Union ethnic Germans were refused posts of certain responsibility.
I was born in the Soviet Union and I don't remember anything of this sort.
Sergy I suspect that me and bee is referring to the pre / post WWII period
Pre-WW2 times? I'm not sure. Soviet Germans even had own autonomous area along Volga river. About a half million of ethnically Germans lived there (they were descendants of Germans invited by Russian tsarina Ekaterina 2d the Great. She herself was German).

Post-war period? Maybe but I'm not sure too. Stalin extradicted Germans from their autonomous area to Siberia and Kazakhstan. But definetily after his death in 1953 Germans were not subjected to any opressions.
 
#20
KGB_resident said:
I would like to thank all contributors for replays. Thank you Gallowglass. Be sure, I understand your joke, always understand.
Well, there you have it...why can't frenchperson and other assorted soreheads be so gracious? I metaphorically raise a glass of vodka to you and the Rodina.


armchair_jihad said:
I have to say at least Putin does not pretend to be everybodys creepy best mate like Bliar - that must be refreshing and he also seems to have a workable knowledge of history unlike our PM whose grasp was once memorably described as limited to a book of quotations.

Another plus is that they are nominally a Christian Country.
Hmmm.....I'm starting to like Putin's Russia more and more 8O

armchair_jihad said:
me n bee said:
In fact (personal opinion) they are very much against the muslims and it doesn't surprise me anymore at their approach to Chechnya!!!
Yep I agree, in retrospect I can now understand the tactics that they used that I used to strongly object to.

Best keep quite about this though PTP is on the prowl.


ssshhhhh
Bearing in mind the Russians' attitude to 'insurgents' in Grozny, it is interesting to speculate how they would have dealt with the insurgency in Baghdad or Basra...


KGB_resident said:
Btw, my uncle (and my father) ethnically are half Poles half Ukrainians. But both regard themselves as 100% Russian.
That's intersting - although they are not ethnically Russian, they still regard themselves as such. Therefore, is being Russian more a question of language, loyalty, and culture?
 

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