4th Coldstreams Tank help.

#1
I've been trying to find out some information on the Strength of the 4th Coldstreams. The Info I'm looking for is what marks of Churchill's the regiment was using, and in what quantities, during the period of September-November 1944. Ideally broken down to Troop level. But anything will do.
I know this info is pretty obscure, but I'm hoping that someone will have at least some idea.

Also I've found some reference's to the 4th Coldstreams changing to 4 troops of 4 tanks, in the same period. They achieved this by merging the vehicles from the 5th Troop with three of the other troops. The Site that said this referred to War diaries and memoirs. Although if someone could confirm this with a reference?

Finally if anyone has any info or personal accounts from this unit in the period mentioned, they would be welcome.

Thanks for any assistance.
 
#2
One source is the history of the 6th Guards Armoured Brigade

6th Guards Tank Brigade
the story of guardsmen in Churchill tanks

by Forbes, Patrick
Published in 1946, S. Low, Marston & co., ltd. (London)

My father, a gunner in 43rd Wessex Division, reckoned that Guardsmen in tanks was the daftest thing he saw. What army but the British would select the tallest men in the army - and sqash them into tanks?

You will find four members of the Battalion on the back row of Overloon CWC in the netherlands. They were killed when their tank ran over a bar mine. Their tank, a CS varient is in the Overloon war musuem next door. The commander lived - but lost his legs,
 
#3
Pteranadon said:
One source is the history of the 6th Guards Armoured Brigade

6th Guards Tank Brigade
the story of guardsmen in Churchill tanks

by Forbes, Patrick
Published in 1946, S. Low, Marston & co., ltd. (London)

My father, a gunner in 43rd Wessex Division, reckoned that Guardsmen in tanks was the daftest thing he saw. What army but the British would select the tallest men in the army - and sqash them into tanks?

You will find four members of the Battalion on the back row of Overloon CWC in the netherlands. They were killed when their tank ran over a bar mine. Their tank, a CS varient is in the Overloon war musuem next door. The commander lived - but lost his legs,
Thanks.
I've encountered that story already. And I know of Patrick Forbes book. However I don't have that kind of cash sloshing around (Cheapest I've seen it is £50). A visit down the Library later this week is in order to try and track down that book.
 
#4
What a pity I'm not at home right now - I'd be able to tell you in about 5 mins flat.

Have a look at British Armour in Normandy by Ludovic Fortin.
 
#5
They would have had Churchill Mk VII with a 75mm Gun and 2 BESA 7.92 MGs
 
#6
Bubbles_Barker said:
What a pity I'm not at home right now - I'd be able to tell you in about 5 mins flat.

Have a look at British Armour in Normandy by Ludovic Fortin.
Thanks for your help. I'll have a look for the book as well. One question does it cover past Normandy? As the info I'm after is for Holland.

tropper66 said:
They would have had Churchill Mk VII with a 75mm Gun and 2 BESA 7.92 MGs
No they don't. No Tank brigade was fully equipped with MKVII's. In June the whole of the 6th guards was equipped with MKIII's and IV's that had been re-armed with 75mm's, and MK VI's. The strength return (again for the entirety of the 6th guards) for December shows a mix of 6Pdr MKIII's and IV's. Along with 75mm Gun tanks.

These numbers are for the entire tank brigade, not the just 4th Coldstreams.
Dec 1944:
III/IV (6pdr): 48
III/IV/VI (75mm) 100
V (95mm) 22
VII (75mm) 12

Now a MKIII with a 75mm is going to look allot like a MKVII.
 
#7
Listy said:
Bubbles_Barker said:
What a pity I'm not at home right now - I'd be able to tell you in about 5 mins flat.

Have a look at British Armour in Normandy by Ludovic Fortin.
Thanks for your help. I'll have a look for the book as well. One question does it cover past Normandy? As the info I'm after is for Holland.

tropper66 said:
They would have had Churchill Mk VII with a 75mm Gun and 2 BESA 7.92 MGs
No they don't. No Tank brigade was fully equipped with MKVII's. In June the whole of the 6th guards was equipped with MKIII's and IV's that had been re-armed with 75mm's, and MK VI's. The strength return (again for the entirety of the 6th guards) for December shows a mix of 6Pdr MKIII's and IV's. Along with 75mm Gun tanks.

These numbers are for the entire tank brigade, not the just 4th Coldstreams.
Dec 1944:
III/IV (6pdr): 48
III/IV/VI (75mm) 100
V (95mm) 22
VII (75mm) 12

Now a MKIII with a 75mm is going to look allot like a MKVII.
I stand corrected I would say this photo was taken at the time
 

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#10
Theres loads more info on the "world war 2 chat" website
 
#11
This one:


Was Taken at Appelhaussen, on 1st or 2nd of April 1945. With good luck it is a Coldstream Tank, as it can be ID by the Tank name. It's the Troop commander of 11 troop, C squadron.

Yes I'm a spotter, but in mitigation I've spent all morning Looking at this subject.
 
#14
Any idea what they used the Panther for? Heading columns maybe, to confuse the Germans a bit? Wouldn't it have been a bit dangerous to drive around in that Panther near other Allied units?
 
#15
They just took it because it had a gun capable of knocking out the opposition at most ranges. Unlike Sherman and Cromwell-equipped regiments, Churchill regiments lacked a 17-pounder gun tank that was capable of dealing with the Panthers and Tigers.

As for recognition - they painted HUGE circled stars on the turret sides, top and rear and eventually on the glacis plate as well - they weren't taking any chances!
 
#16
baboon6 said:
Any idea what they used the Panther for? Heading columns maybe, to confuse the Germans a bit? Wouldn't it have been a bit dangerous to drive around in that Panther near other Allied units?
I thought that the name Cuckoo wight be a clue as to what it was used for, (A cuckoo in the nest)

"Apple sauce" a 17/21st Lancer Valentine was used very sucsessfully at the Battle of Thala, in Tunisia in the same role, By the Germans
 

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#17
Good luck with your search Listy........ but to avoid causing distress to members of The Coldstream Guards could you not use the word Coldstreams. It doesn't exist in our dictionary. Regimental custom dictates that we are referred to as Coldstream or Coldstreamers, never Coldstreams.

I'm sure some of the Blue Red Blue brethren on here will give you plenty of other suitable names for us.
 
#18
tropper66 said:
baboon6 said:
Any idea what they used the Panther for? Heading columns maybe, to confuse the Germans a bit? Wouldn't it have been a bit dangerous to drive around in that Panther near other Allied units?
I thought that the name Cuckoo wight be a clue as to what it was used for, (A cuckoo in the nest)
Nope. it was an extra big gun to throw shells at the Germans.
Here's a better picture:

The tank was also repainted in Olive drab (or at least the UK variant). The name, I believe, comes from the rest of the squadron's HQ being named after Birds.

As to the Valentine, you may be right. I have no idea on the specifics of that vehicle. But the Germans nicked anything that wasn't nailed down, and only then because they didn't have a claw tooth hammer. I've found out about what has to be the most optimistic use of a tank ever. The Germans in April 1945 tried to use a Russian T-35 they'd captured in 1941. It didn't last very long when put in front of the on rushing Commie horde.

Jacob1650 said:
Good luck with your search Listy........ but to avoid causing distress to members of The Coldstream Guards could you not use the word Coldstreams. It doesn't exist in our dictionary. Regimental custom dictates that we are referred to as Coldstream or Coldstreamers, never Coldstreams.
:) Thanks for telling me how to avoid the faux pas.
 
#19
It's a pitty it wasn't a Tiger, as I'm a bit OCD on them,ever since Bovy
 
#20
Some units tried to get Tigers, but working Tigers tended to get nabbed and shipped back to the UK by Int people. There was something of a punch-up between the SRY and 4/7th DGs at Rauray in late June 1944 over a working Tiger they'd captured from Kampfgruppe 'Wuensche' (12 SS 'HJ' Panzer Regt and 101 SS Hvy Panzer Bn). The SRY had captured it, but 4/7th DGs were the ones who found that it still worked and drove it away :) The SRY had the last laugh though, when Int Corps turned up to claim their prize.

http://www.owensarchive.com/world-w...with-101st-ss-panzer-battalion/prod_8297.html
 
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