450 Man ORBAT for SCOTS

#1
Noticed the following in the Daily Telegraph:

The first four battalions of the Royal Regiment of Scotland will now reduce by about 100 to 450 men each and the fifth battalion, the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders will shrink to a company of about 120 men performing ceremonial duties outside Edinburgh Castle and elsewhere.
My italics

Defence cuts: Scottish infantry spared as English regiments axed - Telegraph

Allowing for journalistic licence / ignorance, and putting aside the question of whether the above is fair ( Nope ) ... Does this represent an arbitary cap to save capbadges, or is there some doctrinal reasoning behind it?

Or will it simply be the average manning once you take into account the difference between AI / Protected Mobility / light battalions?
 
#2
i thought these were the kinds of numbers they were operating at already, i think they've just found a way to declare them fully manned and recruited.
 
#3
Retaining an iconic Scottish cap badge will have more to do with planning for the referendum on devolution than increasing the agility of a British infantry brigade. (Agility, a word that is going to be misused a lot in coming months)

B
 
#4
its a win win,if they lose the vote theres a another defence cut there ready made, and they can blame fat alex,whilst saving more on defence.
 

TARA

Old-Salt
#5
Saving what capbadge? The Royal Regiment of Scotland all wear the same capbadge.
 
#7
I have to say I was puzzled - I always though inf bns had different establishments according to role (lt, AI, whatever), but this would seem to be saying that for bns of the SCOTS the establishment is decided by recruitment not role.
 
#8
Does this mean that for as long as the Scottish battalions exist from now on they'll always have to be stuck into the easiest AO or on FP because they won't have the manning that everyone else has?

Or that they'll need to have extra companies added from other regiments before they can deploy?
 

CanteenCowboy

LE
Book Reviewer
#9
Again the rest of the RRS suffers for the pride of a certain regtimental family, and again the Argylls are down to a Company strength, when the SofS went on about the emphasis on reactive forces based around 16AA Bde and AI Bdes but 16 loses two BGs' it makes very little strength. The forces may be flexible, adaptable but they sure as hell won't be sustainable.
 

OldSnowy

LE
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#11
Does this mean that for as long as the Scottish battalions exist from now on they'll always have to be stuck into the easiest AO or on FP because they won't have the manning that everyone else has?

Or that they'll need to have extra companies added from other regiments before they can deploy?
Apart from the devolution argument, it means that they keep a Bn HQ - CO, Adjt, etc - without the necessary number of Soldiers to justify it. It's ridiculous, and will go a long way to making some Bns look ridiculous as well. Currently for HERRICK a Bn is increased by Atts. With the Scots Bns, it will be far more Det than Bn, and that's not sensible, surely. Still, it keeps a lot of Senior slots open, I suppose, so must be 'good' for the promotion pyramid. For example, a CO or RSM will be chosen from the 450 Officers or Men, rather than the normal 650 - better odds! (I know it's not how it works in practice, but that's the ultimate effect.)
 

CanteenCowboy

LE
Book Reviewer
#12
"..the Army will make this work." Nicholas Soames MP, one day this magic fcuking mantra won't work you bunch of cnuts.
 

CanteenCowboy

LE
Book Reviewer
#13
Julian Brazier, how is your city going to replace the approximately £3 million a month disposable income having a infantry battalion stationed there brings in? And going wider what economic help is the Govt going to give to all these other cities and area which will lose the economic benefits of having an Army base nearby?

Oh bollox what do I care any more........
 
#14
Does this mean that for as long as the Scottish battalions exist from now on they'll always have to be stuck into the easiest AO or on FP because they won't have the manning that everyone else has?

Or that they'll need to have extra companies added from other regiments before they can deploy?
i know on H10 3SCOTS deployed with a platoon from 1SCOTS and approx 40 TA punters from 6&7SCOTS. with them they could still only manage 2 "fully manned" coys (less than 100 men each), 2 FSG's (which combined less than 100 guys) and a coy (actually about 40-50 guys) to do OMLT. they got a lot more bods whilst in theatre as well as BCR's from 3YORKS but at the very beginning of the tour they were probably about 350-400 strong (at the time i was told it was the smallest Bn in the army).

i know their manning is a lot better now but when they deployed on H15 i'm told they had "a hoorload" of pioneers attached to them (and now that they've been binned maybe some of them will fancy a career in bullshit at the watch).


450 doesnt seem too bad
 
#15
I wonder what the real political effect would have been if the cuts had followed strictly objective criteria and one, or possibly two, Scottish battalions had gone? Sure, there would have been a bit of a stooshie, and doubtless Wee Eck would have treated us to some 'statesmanlike' rhetoric, but a release of hard figures may have made that hard to sustain. Such a move would doubtless have added to the miasma of victimhood that swirls round the glens, but to what extend would it have translated into more pro-independence votes? I dunno, but can't help feeling someone, somewhere bottled it.
 
#16
As I recall from my very early days in the Army, the Argylls were reduced to Company strength before (Balaclava Company IIRC). They were saved in name then and by public opinion later which saw them increasing back to full strength. Given the current situation in RRS with under-manning and the proposed reduction in manpower for each of the remaining Battalions, is it at all likely, even if the SNP get their way, that we shall ever see a resurgence in recruitment in Scotland without the need to fill the ranks from the Commonwealth, or is it more likely that another Battalion will eventually go.
 
#17
As I recall from my very early days in the Army, the Argylls were reduced to Company strength before (Balaclava Company IIRC). They were saved in name then and by public opinion later which saw them increasing back to full strength. Given the current situation in RRS with under-manning and the proposed reduction in manpower for each of the remaining Battalions, is it at all likely, even if the SNP get their way, that we shall ever see a resurgence in recruitment in Scotland without the need to fill the ranks from the Commonwealth, or is it more likely that another Battalion will eventually go.
You are spot on 1968 I think The Argylls went down to Company strength shortly after their return from Aden. Col Mitchell left went into politics and shafted the Minister responsible. Revenge is a dish best served cold!
 
B

benjaminw1

Guest
#18
You are spot on 1968 I think The Argylls went down to Company strength shortly after their return from Aden. Col Mitchell left went into politics and shafted the Minister responsible. Revenge is a dish best served cold!
As did The Hampshire's and a 3 RGJ so I seem to recall.
 
#20
You are spot on 1968 I think The Argylls went down to Company strength shortly after their return from Aden. Col Mitchell left went into politics and shafted the Minister responsible. Revenge is a dish best served cold!

In fairness Lt Col Mitchell made a statement that displeased the GOC Aden & London, despite reoccupying the Bank and other strategic locations. The term Argyll Law came about, with the reentry into Crater almost bloodless with only one death.



When 3 Scots(BW) needed over 60+ pioneers plus others it says a lot. Especially when the medal parade was short of Medals(300 presented).

Manpower has always been a roblem since the abolition of National service, look at how many NS served in Korea.

Thanfully 5 scots still exist, a coy is better than disbandment. When the Cameronions chose to disband rather than merge, their name lived on with the TA until the KOSB absorbed the TA Coys aroud 1992.
 

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