430 series AFV

Discussion in 'Weapons, Equipment & Rations' started by Mr Happy, Feb 4, 2006.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. Mr Happy

    Mr Happy LE Moderator

    When I was a nipper I remember completing a Summer project for teacher about the BritFor's answer to the Russian threat and general war in Germany - the 430 APC, six lads in the back (and a GPMG to see off those fiendish tanks on top) - the entire homework was largely plagiarised upon the British Army's publicity. Anyway, 20 years later I actually saw one of these things, not rolling around the German country side but a mate had bought a 434 ex-surplus so he could change the pack on his also ex-surplus Chieftain. Now, about 10 years later I was pretty damn sure that the entire fleet had been sent to the big dump in the sky so imagine my surprise when I read the following:

    Can anyone tell me what we're doing refitting 30 year old crap that breaks down halfway through a 2 day exercise and all the other slagging I've heard for this 'AFV' (which in my day was called an APC I might add).
  2. a) Because someone has realised just how long it's going to take to get FRES into service

    b) Its not as bad as Saxon
  3. msr

    msr LE

    I think you'll find this actually is the first part of FRES - or at least it will be when someone has to defend point a) above....

  4. At least you don't have to ride into battle in the f***ing thing! The only good news about the upgrade is that they will be faster than WR and therefore either a) in front of the Recce screen or b) withdrawing so fast you won't see them for s**t! More room than a WR though - just need some armour, enviormental controls and a big 40mm stabilised gun!
  5. With the weight budget available, we might be looking at a pintle-mounted catapult and applique rollmat armour!
  6. Watch this space...
  7. It is sad, that even the cheapest of second grade, third world armies are using reletivley modern AFVs for their support vehicles, when the British Army is using 50 year old AFV 432s (and associated varients).

    The simple 'box on tracks' design may have been well advanced in the early 1950/60s, but at a time when the British government insist that our armed forces 'play' up there in the premier league we should be playing with premier league equipment. The Infantry APC has been improved once in the last 25 years (I'm not counting the Saxon as an improvement!), the MBT twice. So what's the point of improving the fighting troops vehicles without upgrading their support? It's not just the 432s, Armoured Engineer support has traditionally used the chassis of earlier MBTs meaning that althoug being required in front of the MBTs, they had trouble keeping up. This is about to be resolved, but a long time after the Chally 2 has been in service.

    The trouble is, as long as the lads on the ground work harder to keep the ancient support vehicles working, nothing is going to change until FRES enters service..... late, below standard and well over buget.
  8. The problem with the old 430 series was always the pack, steering box and trans as a whole. The new design of the pack with incorporated gearbox/steering with warrior style steering yoke will surprise a lot of people, even the oldest and boldest. Lets see what is going to be like before we slag it off lads.
  9. I was under the impresion that the FV430 series soldiered on only in a variety of specialist roles? such as ambulance, recovery, mortar carrier and radar vehicle. As an APC it has been almost replaced by the Warrior Tracked Infantry Fighting Vehicle, or the Saxon Wheeled Armoured Personnel Carrier......
  10. But what should happen, if say it were to become apparent that Saxon couldn't safely carry Bowman or any more armour? :?
  11. The US Army is still using the M113, as do the Israelis.
  12. No argument that an improvment in pack, and steering would make things a little better. I am however questioning the judgment in investing in improvements in a 50 year old vehicle. It's not just the design in pack and steering that have improved over the last 50 years. Armour has improved giving more protection for less weight, radio systems have changed twice and with it the fittings. There'll soon be no more room for places to bolt things on, Many exterior fittings are now redundent and in some cases, like the mortar hatches, just get in the way and allow water into the radio and electrical systems despite many attempts to seal them. Even CVR(T), Warrior and Callenger 2 have additional armour bolted on when needed.... the 432 never has despite being right up there with it's better protected cousins in both Gulf wars.

    No, an upgrade however needed only gives an already outdated vehicle the air of providing battlefield protection on a 21st centuary battlefield that it couldn't even provide on a mid-20th centary one. Not to mention all the reasons in the world for FRES to take its time coming into service when it is was reqired yesterday.
  13. Is there an APC out there that isn't just a metal box on wheels or tracks?

    The Swedish SEP demonstrator is not much more than a 432 with a clever powerplant.


    Most modern armours fitted to APCs are appliques fitted to a basic hull. Therefore, all you need is a platform with a good power:weight ratio in order to allow you to fit as much as possible.
  14. See your point PP, unfortunatly you'll never get an answer from DPA or DLO, they're far too high and mighty to answer serious questions either that or they're to busy playing golf or doing the jobs for the boys thing.
  15. Both the Isreali's Canadians, Australians Danes and Americans are engaged in M113 upgrade programs

    Isreali Zeldas:


    Australian Tenix upgrade:


    The Canadian TLAV project


    Danish Upgrade programme:


    Most "Premier League Armies" with M113 see good value for money in upgrading the platform rather than replacing it. The same applies for FV 432. Obviously the simple box on tracks has some milage yet!