383 Commando is recruiting now.

ugly

LE
Moderator
#41
I'm not slamming training, all training would ideally be open to all who want it, there however is a budget, just because Andrew are picking up the tab now is meaningless, they dropped 1 Rifles as soon as the Army wanted the Andrew to pay. Eventually the accountants will look at the cost of each unit, Dettol badged pet ops will by nature be costlier than non Dettol badged and therefore more likely to be cut. Would the unit deploy if over half weren't badged? Serious question that by the way!
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#42
Therefore, arctic/winter (Norway etc) and mountain is the expected environment. Helo'd in fuel supplies will probably need some small force keeping an eye on it and I'm not sure it's a rockape remit.
AMF weren't commando badged just theatre trained! Again what does a badged commando offer over a non badged commando when it comes to fuel supply? Its a serious question because when you loo at the RLC trade you don't see many motivated individuals. I suppose it could always be done by the RLC's famous diesel dykes?
What I am saying is its a bonus but surely not needed!
 
#43
SPA has not changed to ¨Rock Climbing Instructor¨ which makes us sound a lot more heroic I think. It´s much better than ¨Single Pitch Award¨. (BTW i did my with a civi company and cost hardly anything, 150 for the weekend training and then another 150 for the assessment after a year of logging leads and group work).
Point taken about the cost of the courses. I was adding in the consolidation period of logged hours in different places. It was largely my own fault for doing MLA, SPA, BASI (Alpine and Adaptive) in the same year (plus climbing Elbrus)

Wish someone had paid me to do it all.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#44
Therefore, arctic/winter (Norway etc) and mountain is the expected environment. Helo'd in fuel supplies will probably need some small force keeping an eye on it and I'm not sure it's a rockape remit.
I don't know where apes entered the argument, but again AMF style training would be cheaper and more efficient, just imagine what the treasury will say when they look at the cost for delivering fuel to a forward pol in say the Turkish mountains? They will tell the navy to trim the fat! To be honest the way the RM is looking at the moment with one commando on notice to move and the rest seemingly filling the detachments it wont be long before they get dicked for fuelling wagons and helos.
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
#45
It was largely my own fault for doing MLA, SPA, BASI (Alpine and Adaptive) in the same year (plus climbing Elbrus)
Alpenjäger Walt :)



FARPs are an RLC responsibility, not RAF regt. A mate did it in Norven Eyerack pre 1991.
 
#46
Point taken about the cost of the courses. I was adding in the consolidation period of logged hours in different places. It was largely my own fault for doing MLA, SPA, BASI (Alpine and Adaptive) in the same year (plus climbing Elbrus)

Wish someone had paid me to do it all.
Sure, it is easier to achieve an SPA / RCI or ML if you can volunteer several blokes to come out for the day / weekend and be your guinea pigs for the log book. If you don´t have access to a bunch of people then you may have to down the unpaid work route which always grates a bit. I would much rather deal with military people on the crag than kids who don´t want to be there
 
#47
You don't need your commando quality to be truck driver/clerk/workshops/cook etc - but if you're part of 3 Cdo Bde it does come in rather handy because you may suddenly find yourself expected to carry something rather heavy, a long way, fast, and accept that that goes with the formation you're part of. Whenever I saw Cdo pet ops it was on amphibious Ex's and there was a regular post attached to 59 iirc.
I can also think of occasions where non Cdo trained personnel could not perform to the same level as Cdo personnel.
It's a useful standard.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#48
I can also think of occasions where non Cdo trained personnel could not perform to the same level as Cdo personnel.
It's a useful standard.
I don't doubt it but compare them to the old AMF troops, bags of in theatre training and competent for role. No need for expensive testing to a standard for standards sake, testing to fitness for a role should have some role related reality injected into the training. Nothing wrong with everyone doing some E&E or strenuous adventure training but how long is the Cdo course and even after that they need theatre specific training.
Its a no brainer if the cost becomes an issue.

Don't get me wrong I loved all of the courses the army sent me on, the best of them resulting in no badge at all just theatre employment in role for 2 or more years of arduous and dangerous work.
 
#49
Without trying to encapsulate the roles of every branch of the armed forces - I have no experience of AMF and don't doubt their effectiveness;. If we retain capabilities for expedition operations then airborne and commando/amphibious units are required. If they can go from arctic to equator then those different environments need to be factored in.
I know that 383 are a very small, but specialist, unit with a specific job - and there should be a requirement that they have Commando qual'd personnel to meet the requirements of the Bde they're part of.
I was attached to an ADR Sqn once that practically blanched at their big tactical deployment excercise as an unfamiliar environment (but we're very capable at their trade) .
The tempo and expectations of working within 3 Cdo Bde are a norm - when viewed from under your green lid.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#50
RM provided a large part of AMF and the Army was massively involved but rotated Bns through on the arms plot. This meant (a bit like snow queen) that a lot of the Infantry got to experience expeditionary operations/exercises. This doesn't seem to happen anymore which is a pity, it created a wide pool of knowledge in the 52 Infantry Bns at the time which was very useful.
There was obviously no way that the army was going to send 700 troops every two years through AACC but there is no doubt that the army met the task very well and as said earlier a pool of experience was created.
It almost proved that the AACC wasn't needed to serve amongst 3 Cdo brigade, maybe that's why no one was keen on resurrecting it?
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#51
I was attached to an ADR Sqn once that practically blanched at their big tactical deployment excercise as an unfamiliar environment (but we're very capable at their trade) .
The AMF tasking came with lots of training, it was very good for the Army and a pity when it ended, it virtually proved that we don't need to retain specialist units but a core of trainers and leaders with the experience. They deployed in Winter to Norway and summer to Turkey. Both deployments were mountainous.
The British Army tried a specialist Mountain Division in WW2, after many years of training much of it to commando standard they deployed to that well known mountain region of Europe known as Holland!
Very good soldiers but the army retained a division that it really needed in the fight. When it came to taking Norway (Norway was the reason for the mountain division) the RAF landed thousands of Paratroops by plane onto the airfields. It is possibly better especially in a smaller army to train as many units as possible on a rotational basis through the possible theatres and keep a core of Corps units where personnel rotate in role.
 
#52
We're splitting hairs really. The British Army in WW2 didn't have a specialist mountain unit for the Norway campaign and by the time it had a formation capable of such ops sometimes it wasn't necessary.
In an ideal world a units individuals would have time to rotate through several different environments (although experience built up within a formation probably has deeper benefits).
Overall, being trained and prepared for the environment you're likely to be deployed to is best done before rather than 'in theatre' particularly where swift deployment is as probable as it is possible.
We had a little chortle at deploying to that littoral region known as Afghanistan but mountain and Heli ops were part of our remit - so personnel, regular or reserve, do need to meet the Bdes requirement. Without being facetious (as I can't recall what AMFs remit was) were they better suited for expedition conflict?
Would a random squaddy be at home carrying out the expected workload, undermanned, isolated and at high altitude?

I don't know how many are on strength with 383 or how many are Cdo qual'd or deployed, but I reckon any civvy in a fuel supply occupation who fancies a bit of broader challenge would enjoy it.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#53
We're splitting hairs really. The British Army in WW2 didn't have a specialist mountain unit for the Norway campaign and by the time it had a formation capable of such ops sometimes it wasn't necessary.
It did for the second planned invasion, some of this was influenced by the French contingent to the first invasion. I suspect this is the one you were talking about. In fact attempts were made to recruit mountain experienced troops to form a commando for the Narvik intervention. They didn't get it together in time and were sent to the middle east (10 SS rings a bell). There was a mountain division trained, 52nd:
1st Line Territorial Army division at the start of the war, with headquarters in Glasgow. Trained at various times as both a mountain and airlanding division, but never used in either role. Served in France June 1940 and in northwestern Europe from October 1944 until the end of the war in Europe. Fought in the Scheldt Estuary, the Rhineland, and across the Rhine. Ended the campaign in northwestern Europe under command of XXX Corps.
The Scheldt estuary doesn't get much more removed from mountains!
However there was much benefit to the division from its long period of training and it wasn't constantly stripped for reinforcements.
 
#54
Sure, it is easier to achieve an SPA / RCI or ML if you can volunteer several blokes to come out for the day / weekend and be your guinea pigs for the log book. If you don´t have access to a bunch of people then you may have to down the unpaid work route which always grates a bit. I would much rather deal with military people on the crag than kids who don´t want to be there
And with that, I give you young offenders and princes trust. I genuinely wanted to walk some of them into somewhere really fookin 'orrible and just bug out during the night leaving them alone and with nothing.

But, back to the original point, if I were local and young enough, I'd at least wander into 383 for 'a wet' and to see what all the fuss is about. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
 
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#55
And with that, I give you young offenders and princes trust. I genuinely wanted to walk some of them into somewhere really fookin 'orrible and just bug out during the night leaving them alone and with nothing.
Alpenjäger Walt :)



FARPs are an RLC responsibility, not RAF regt. A mate did it in Norven Eyerack pre 1991.
Seem to remember it being called Herresberg-something or other in boxtroll. It was the Bundeswehr equivalent of a UIAGM guide...done by 'them' and some APTC AT specialists.

I worked for one of those types in Sonthofen a few years ago. Fitter than a butchers dog, with just a gentle but worrying hint of insanity....nice guy though called Sam. :strong:
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
#56
Old Wehrmacht unit, strongly recruited in the Tyrol.....climbed Uncle Joe's tallest mountain ( Mount Elbruz) for sh1ts and giggles back in 1942 or so.

Adolf was p1ssed off but had to shower them with Knights Crosses courtesy of the poison dwarf Goebbels who wanted to big-up the agitprop value

' Aryan Uber-Mensch conquer Rodina's unclimbable Mountain' only in your free copy of Volkischer Beobachter Special Edition !!!

[ Which it will not hurt your future to read comrade....if you get my drift...]
 
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#57
To clarify, I was quoting costs of an ML course to someone who couldn't believe they were that expensive. Our courses have been at JSAT centres with civvy instructors.

Why the fixation with 'drivers'? Someone out there must enjoy doing it.....but it's not our role.

Generally speaking, as Pet Ops, if we blow something up then we aren't having a particularly good day....


'RE Lot' and ROAC (RLC since1996) in the same shot. Not a Pet Op myself but it looks like a bad day is being had.
 

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