38/40mm handheld rockets?

#1
Hello all,

I was reading these articles:

defence.professionals | defpro.com
www.groundsystems-index.com - Company News - Eurosatory - KNM Media LLP

and was wondering what weapon they are talking about replacing here:
a next generation design of another widely used infantry product, the 38/40mm handheld rocket.
Does anyone have pictures of the MERS or the 38/40mm rocket it was supposed to replace?

BTW, handheld rockets were the idea I was talking about in a previous thread on Arsse on 29/5/10 here:
http://www.arrse.co.uk/qms-clothing...g-selling-new-weapon-system-our-soldiers.html

I had gone for a smaller 30mm rocket solution because then you fire off more for a given packing volume. Nothing more intimidating for Mr. Taliban than a soldier letting loose several rockets at once at him :)

IB
 
#2
AFAIK they are talking about signalling and illumination devices not weapons systems. From the second article you linked to:

A major innovation is the introduction of a new Ground Target Smoke capability, in which the smoke payload can be fired at an angle along the ground to mark a target for directing fire or aerial attack. This is in addition to the handheld rocket’s standard capabilities for Illumination of forward ground and Signalling. MERS provides high performance Illumination with a `white light` payload delivering 200,000 Candela (candle power) and the option of a covert `black light` infra red payload.
 
#5
I had gone for a smaller 30mm rocket solution because then you fire off more for a given packing volume. Nothing more intimidating for Mr. Taliban than a soldier letting loose several rockets at once at him :)

IB
Perhaps one that hits, or packs a bigger bang might be more intimidating?

A 30mm rocket is going to be pretty long to fit a decent size warhead and motor. The L/D ratio means that it will have to be fin, rather than spin, stabilised, so it's going to weathercock in a cross-wind. A 40mm rocket would put you into the same class as the OG7 projectiles, with a 210g filler. (about 6.5 times the explosive weight of a 40x46mm grenade)
 
#6
Ah thanks guys. I was expecting to find a hand fired rocket-boosted equivalent to the 40mm grenade, or something like the RKG-3.

Perhaps one that hits, or packs a bigger bang might be more intimidating?

A 30mm rocket is going to be pretty long to fit a decent size warhead and motor. The L/D ratio means that it will have to be fin, rather than spin, stabilised, so it's going to weathercock in a cross-wind. A 40mm rocket would put you into the same class as the OG7 projectiles, with a 210g filler. (about 6.5 times the explosive weight of a 40x46mm grenade)
The RPG-7 rockets weathercock in crosswinds too. In fact it counterintuitively travels towards the crosswind, making aiming difficult. All that said the RPG-7 is still a highly potent weapon, especially if the gunner gets a second shot after seeing where the first landed.

I had thought about spin stabilisation but decided it would take too long to spin the rocket up to any decent RPM for gyroscopic stabilisation to become significant, particularly at shorter ranges. Axial acceleration however will be very quick hence stabilisation from fins would kick in soon.

Better to achieve target hits by loosing several in the general direction of the opposition, and rely on cluster-bomb effects to kill/incapacitate them. This is particularly true if the enemy's precise location is not known. A dozen soldiers could quickly let loose a hundred or so rockets - not something to be trifled with! :)

I filed a patent for this in May '10. If anyone wants to co-develop it let me know. If anything Bonfire Night is coming up and playing around with these would be a blast :) (legally, of course!)
 
#7
Better to achieve target hits by loosing several in the general direction of the opposition, and rely on cluster-bomb effects to kill/incapacitate them. This is particularly true if the enemy's precise location is not known. A dozen soldiers could quickly let loose a hundred or so rockets - not something to be trifled with!
Cluster bomb effect? firing when the enemy location is not known - Admittedly with 5.56 firing into likely positions of enemy cover is an accepted norm, but smashing out 100 HE projectiles isnt really the plan for winning the firefight in Afghan you know - something about PID and Courageous restraint etc etc.
 
#8
tanks really don't like schermuleys fired at them.
note to potential officers when handing out pyro be very specific about what you want it used for.
giving a private an illum rocket in daylight and telling them its to simulate a 66mm fire was'nt the smartest of moves
 
#9
Cluster bomb effect? firing when the enemy location is not known - Admittedly with 5.56 firing into likely positions of enemy cover is an accepted norm, but smashing out 100 HE projectiles isnt really the plan for winning the firefight in Afghan you know - something about PID and Courageous restraint etc etc.
Surely not all firefights happen in places where collateral damage is an issue?
 
#10
Its not to do with collateral all the time, its to do with perception.
If we decimate every wall, culvert and doorway every time we take a burst of fire, the locals are going to complain sooner or later.

- with 40+ relatively small and ineffecrtive projectiles getting expended on every decent RPG contact, what are your plans for resupply. With the naus that is carrying 66tubes around the place empty to avoid them getting bobby trapped, whats the plan with the detritus from the numerous "angry schemulies" you are planning?
 
#11
Its not to do with collateral all the time, its to do with perception.
If we decimate every wall, culvert and doorway every time we take a burst of fire, the locals are going to complain sooner or later.

- with 40+ relatively small and ineffecrtive projectiles getting expended on every decent RPG contact, what are your plans for resupply. With the naus that is carrying 66tubes around the place empty to avoid them getting bobby trapped, whats the plan with the detritus from the numerous "angry schemulies" you are planning?
I did hear at a talk that you guys carried around your empty tubes to avoid them getting booby trapped. I found it puzzling - why don't you just leave any tubes you come across alone? Presumably if it is only empty ones you discard, any ones you come across are either empty and booby trapped, or empty and not booby trapped. Either way no reason to pick it up...
 
#12
Schermooley drills

"Cpl Porter, do you know what you're doing with that?"

"Yes Staff!"

"You've fired one before then?"

"Yes Staff,loads of em!"

"Don't you think you should hold it the other way up then?"

"I know what I'm doing Staff!"

WHOOOOSH THUMMMP AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!!

Smoke clears eventually to show hopping clever shit Corporal with charred groin area and smoking daisy roots.
 
B

bokkatankie

Guest
#13
I did hear at a talk that you guys carried around your empty tubes to avoid them getting booby trapped. I found it puzzling - why don't you just leave any tubes you come across alone? Presumably if it is only empty ones you discard, any ones you come across are either empty and booby trapped, or empty and not booby trapped. Either way no reason to pick it up...
Good point well made, never understood logic of picking up empties.

As to cernunnos v funny skit, sadly it can end up much worse as is well known in old RH.
 
#14
The emptys have strips of spring steel in them where the extention slides out and the sights pop up.
The ANA bring back allsorts of Random stuff, I can tolerate them bringing back PPIED in their trucks and arranging them in their tent (well, I had to, they did) But I dont want them presenting me with expnded 66 they happened to find on the road side during their last ganja shopping trip.
 
#15
tanks really don't like schermuleys fired at them.
note to potential officers when handing out pyro be very specific about what you want it used for.
giving a private an illum rocket in daylight and telling them its to simulate a 66mm fire was'nt the smartest of moves
i remember when i was in fally late 80's when some funny f*cker did this, the guy poking out of the top of the turret at the time who's head it buried into whilst burning didn't laugh, he lived as well if i remember rightly.
 
B

bokkatankie

Guest
#16
i remember when i was in fally late 80's when some funny f*cker did this, the guy poking out of the top of the turret at the time who's head it buried into whilst burning didn't laugh, he lived as well if i remember rightly.
They live just not as well
 
#17
i remember when i was in fally late 80's when some funny f*cker did this, the guy poking out of the top of the turret at the time who's head it buried into whilst burning didn't laugh, he lived as well if i remember rightly.
I did point out that giving vauge instructions to a stab pte was'nt that clever.
"use it to simulate 66mm fire" is vauge and open to interpertation
shoot it into the air to simulate 66 mm fire leads no room interpretation.
never assume somebody won't do something stupid.
 
B

bokkatankie

Guest
#18
I did point out that giving vauge instructions to a stab pte was'nt that clever.
"use it to simulate 66mm fire" is vauge and open to interpertation
shoot it into the air to simulate 66 mm fire leads no room interpretation.
never assume somebody won't do something stupid.
STAB no regular Tank Comdr yes, end result not at all pretty but the little ****** beat me in GS in Verbier.
 
#19
Theirs being a complete plonker because your an inexperinced idiot whose easily confused. big diffrence it you should no better 3 queens had gas stoves banned on exercise due to the number of flash burns they caused.
nothing to do with a certain Jnco who'd learnt a way to modiy thunderflashes.
You think after the first two noduffs people would learn :(
 

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