.303 ID

I was given some WWII 1944 fired .303 cases this am that a pal has just dug up with his metal detector.

Not because I'm an expert on such things...but simply I'm English and there fore must know exactly what they are and who fired them and the serial number of his gat etc. :eek:

They're kinda intresting because they have what appears to be a small copper disc wedged in them...I've not seen this before (which means feck all) but wondered what it is for or what they are for?

No photos as yet as my batteries are flat...but will post them as soon as the phone is charged up.

There's also a painted steel steel cap with the case fragments which looks as though it might be from some type of grenade...possiblly a No.82 Gammon Bomb or No.69 Grenade as that's the closest thing I've found so far that resembles the cap...except this has a spting clip on it.

Greatful for any ideas.
 

4(T)

LE
Which end is the copper disk wedged?

Are the primers indented with a round dent (rifle) or slotted dent (Bren gun)?
 
No 69 and 82 grenades both used the no247 always fuze. It's cap is made of bakerlite.
 
The .303 cartridge case could be an 'E MK VII 1T' grenade launching cartridge. It has a copper cap.
 
Is it like this?
image.jpg
 
I think you might have it with the Grenade Launching cartridge.

They are from an area which was not exactly a battlefield as such but was possibly used as a training area behind the front line from arounf 13th June 44 onwards.
 
The cap looks like that found on the fuze of a three inch mortar bomb.

It is. Used in a series of fuzes, last to go out of service was the no162 on the 81mm HE. Also used on 2" and 3" HE.
 

HE117

LE
The screw cap is off either a 117,119 or 213 fuze!
These were used on a number of artillery natures including the 25 pounder and 5.5..

Ding... the 162 fuze cap is thinner does not have the flat spring clip..!

The thing with three holes is a Tube vent axial.. - it looks like a .303 blank with a backpressure valve in it..

What you have found therefore is a 5.5" gun position...

Eye Thenk yew...!
 
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The screw cap is off either a 117,119 or 213 fuze!
These were used on a number of artillery natures including the 25 pounder and 5.5..

Ding... the 162 fuze cap is thinner does not have the flat spring clip..

I'll defer to you on that. My dad fired 25pdr and. 5.5, he joined in '54. All out of service by my time. Although I'm pretty sure we covered No 117,119 and 213 fuzes.
 
The screw cap is off either a 117,119 or 213 fuze!
These were used on a number of artillery natures including the 25 pounder and 5.5..

Ding... the 162 fuze cap is thinner does not have the flat spring clip..!

The thing with three holes is a Tube vent axial.. - it looks like a .303 blank with a backpressure valve in it..

What you have found therefore is a 5.5" gun position...

Eye Thenk yew...!


Thank you very much indeed...knowing where these came from that is highly likely. He'll be made up with that info.

:)


I've now done some reading and have more questions.

5.5" used brass cases.

Am I right in wondering why there would be Vent Sealing Tubes (I take it that is the same thing as a Tube Vent Axial?) in that position...are they not something used on bag charges.

You can tell I'm outta my depth here so go easy on me.
 
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Are you thinking of Tube Vent Electric? TVEs are used with tank bag charges.

Primers (electric or percussion) are used in Artillery bag and cartridge charges as well as tank cartridge charges.
 
Are you thinking of Tube Vent Electric? TVEs are used with tank bag charges.

Primers (electric or percussion) are used in Artillery bag and cartridge charges as well as tank cartridge charges.


No I don't think so.

I'm getting confused though.

BL Guns using the said Tube Vent Axial use bag charges and the TVA goes in through the side of the breech...is that right?

But the 5.5" was OF? So Cartridge and therefore didn't have the Vent Sealing Tube?

Digging trenches was alot simpler than this Artillery talk.
 

HE117

LE
Thank you very much indeed...knowing where these came from that is highly likely. He'll be made up with that info.

:)


I've now done some reading and have more questions.

5.5" used brass cases. - Nope! 5.5 is a BL - 25 pounder is a QF

Am I right in wondering why there would be Vent Sealing Tubes (I take it that is the same thing as a Tube Vent Axial?) in that position...are they not something used on bag charges.

You can tell I'm outta my depth here so go easy on me.

No worries - a valid question..

The 5.5 was a BL gun system that used an interrupted thread breech which incorporated a gas seal known as a DeBang pad. It used a bag charge which was consumed on firing. To fire the charge a flame was sent down a hole in the centre of the breech known a the vent. These have always featured on cannon. In muzzle loading cannon the vent is usually at right angle to the bore and was known as a vent radial. The DeBang design has the vent in line with the axis of the bore and was called a Vent Axial.

At one time the cannon would be fired using loose powder stemmed down the vent and lit with a linstock. This was slow to load, was difficult to unload and introduced quite a long delay between applying the linstock and the firing of the piece. Initially goose quills filled with powder or black match were used in the vent, but these were replaced with copper tubes with a friction igniter at right angles to the tube. The tube was placed in the vent and the friction tab pulled by use of a lanyard. The tube was blown out of the vent by the backblast from the charge. These were known as Tube Vent Radial.

With the development of breech loading (BL) gun systems, the tube was moved into a tube lock mounted on the breech and initated either by percussion or electricity. Interestingly the first Tube Vent Axials were electric as they were used by Naval guns systems of the 1880s which worked by central direction and firing. Early electical tubes were widely replaced by percussion because of reliabiltiy problems.

The problem with the design of axial tubes was the back pressure. Normal small arms cases are not capable of withstanding cannon breech pressures, which tend to blow the cap cups back into the breech locks. To overcome this, tubes incorporate a one way valve mechanism that uses a cone or a ball that allows the flash from the cap to reach the tube charge (usually gunpowder pellets) but will then close against the back pressure from the main charge.. As Ding will confirm, the Tube Vent Electric used on the Chieftain/Challenger has a movable pole piece that does the same thing..

Primers, which are used in Quick Firing (QF) designs that incorporate a cartridge case, also incorporate back pressure valves. Primers screw or are pressed into the base of the case.

Alles Clar?
 
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Assembled masses. Every day is a learning day even at my (ours HE 117) age but the photos posted by Ooooooohhh Matron (spelling) show some ballistite vent tubes with top end blackened.

BUT

The 94 Energa grenade ballistite cartridge had the lower half blacked (0.303 and 7.62 for THE Weapon). Was there a reason for this do we know? The ballistite colouring need is obvious, the location - .........?

Answers on a postcard.
 

HE117

LE
Assembled masses. Every day is a learning day even at my (ours HE 117) age but the photos posted by Ooooooohhh Matron (spelling) show some ballistite vent tubes with top end blackened.

BUT

The 94 Energa grenade ballistite cartridge had the lower half blacked (0.303 and 7.62 for THE Weapon). Was there a reason for this do we know? The ballistite colouring need is obvious, the location - .........?

Answers on a postcard.

OMs examples are not tubes.. TVAs made on the .303 case form were not necked..

...and yes and I know what they are RM..

ACK!

(or maybe Pack!)
 

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