2nd American civil/revolutionary war

Discussion in 'US' started by StJohnguy, Jan 14, 2011.

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  1. "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed".

    JJH & co., given the above & the belief that the US citizenry should remain armed in order to counter "Tyrants", under what circumstances would you take up arms against the government in a 2nd Civil/Revolutionary war?
  2. rampant

    rampant LE Reviewer Book Reviewer

    If you are describing it as such it could be construed as a Fourth Civil War

    1st being, The Civil War (1642-51) - the American Colonies split along Royalist & Parliamentarian lines, in some ways a similar geographic division as the Third Civil War:

    2nd, The American Revolutionary War
    3rd, 1861-65 or The War of Northern Aggression as JJH describes it as.
  3. OK then Rampant, I'll cut out the Civil & say 2nd Revolutionary War.
  4. rampant

    rampant LE Reviewer Book Reviewer

    You don't have to, I was just being whimsically pedantic with a soupçon of smug for good measure.

    In reference to your post, I think it would take a lot more than you might think to have the States warring with each other again.

    American political rhetoric is the equivalent of emo kids painting their faces, moping around listening to loud music about topping yourself and self harm, whilst screaming "I hate you, you don't undertand me!!!" at their parents.*

    *Britain, patronising everyone since..... oooooohhh just about forever.
  5. jim24

    jim24 Book Reviewer

    Read "The Winter Soldiers" by Richard Ketchum. at the time the Americans did not intend to have a standing Army,
  6. I was thinking less of a war between the states, Rampant, as of a popular armed uprising.
  7. rampant

    rampant LE Reviewer Book Reviewer

    Bit of cod psych here: there are 4 or so stages, IIRC, for a person to go through before commiting a crime or breaking a taboo, I'm adapting Finklehor to an extent here, but as a pattern of progression it works ok.

    1. Thinking About the Act
    2. Overcoming the Internal Inhibitions to Commiting the Act
    3. Overcoming the External Inhibitors to Commiting the Act
    4. Commiting the Act

    Almost all people fall into the first category, we have all thought of commiting an act of crime or breaking a taboo at some stage or another, and by and large this falls into the realm of research, daydreaming, ranting or simple discussion between people.

    The second stage is where the percentages start to fall massively, we all have an internalised moral or ethical code by which we live and by and large for the vast majority of people will not pass this stage. If we look at in the scenario you propose, people would have to overcome the internalised ideals of good behaviour, law and order, patriotism, the prospect of violence, fear of failure or being caught and so forth.

    A tiny percentage will move to the third stage, these are the people like Loughner et al, having overcome their internal inhibitions they then have to set up the act and overcome the external inhibitors - Legislation, Police, Security, Miltary etc etc, the weight of preventative measures and controls sweeps up most of these types.

    An even tinier percentage will overcome these obstacles and move on to commiting the act, but in the scenario you suggest I see this as a long way off or near impossible at this current time. Mainly due to the fact that most people at will n ot get past stage one: backwoods miltia types have passed stage two and are at stage 3 but will never progress beyond that. Stage 4 types, well there was Loughner.

    The ties that bind within American society are still too strong for the majority of its citizenary to progress beyongd the stage 1 scenario, though rhetoric and circumstance may ease the passage past stage 2 onto 3 for a few. The current climate precludes that on the whole.
  8. Not bad, but could you place the Gulf Coast of Mississippi and Alabama in the British Territory please? Some of the best sea fishing in the world there. The spicks can keep Florida and the Frogs are welcome to Nawlins.
  9. Patronising? Us, the British? Oh don't you worry your pretty little Septic heads about that...
  10. Or possibly even this.....

  11. Patronising? That's a big word for you. Well done! Very cute; awwwwww.
  12. That bit shown as "unexplored" (Washington State, Idaho, Oregon etc) used to be British as well ! (Until we gave it away in 1846(?))
  13. I was more interested in how "tyrannical" a US regime would have to be, for it to spark a violent uprising amongst the population, this being one of the principle justifications given by our cousins for the 2nd amendment.

    In other words, a tyrannical regime cannot occur, supported by police/military & the force of arms, as the population is also armed.
  14. 54 degrees 40 minutes or fight!

    29b. 54° 40' or Fight

    [​IMG]The West
    Map showing the Oregon Trail, Oregon Country, and northern Mexico
    The southern boundary of the United States with Mexico was not the only western territory under dispute. The Oregon Territory spanned the modern states of Oregon, Idaho, and Washington, as well as the western coast of Canada up to the border of Russian Alaska. Both Great Britain and America claimed the territory. The Treaty of 1818 called for joint occupation of Oregon — a solution that was only temporary. Led by missionaries, American settlers began to outnumber British settlers by the late 1830s. But Britain was not Mexico. Its powerful navy was still the largest in the world. Twice before had Americans taken up arms against their former colonizers at great expense to each side. Prudence would suggest a negotiated settlement, but the spirit of manifest destiny dominated American thought. Yet another great showdown loomed.
    Wagon tracks leftover from the Oregon Trail pioneers still crisscross the American midwest.
    Oregon fever swept the nation in the 1840s. Thousands of settlers, lured by the lush Willamette Valley headed west on the Oregon Trail. Families in caravans of 20 or 30 braved the elements to reach the distant land. Poor eastern families could not generally make the trip, as outfitting such an expedition was quite expensive. The Conestoga wagon, oxen and supplies comprised most of the cost. The families fought Native Americans at times, but often they received guidance from the western tribes. It took six months of travel at the speed of fifteen miles per day to reach their destination.

    [​IMG][​IMG] [FONT=Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,helv,sans-serif] Friday, May 6th — Pleasant. We have just passed the Mormon graveyard. There is a great number of graves on it. The road is covered with wagons and cattle. Here we passed a train of wagons on their way back, the head man had drowned a few days before, in a river called Elkhorn, while getting some cattle across, and his wife was lying in the wagon quite sick, and children were mourning for a father gone. With sadness and pity I passed those who perhaps a few days before had been well and happy as ourselves. Came 20 miles today.
    Excerpt from Diary of Mrs. Amelia Stewart Knight, 1853
    Oregon Territory

    Should the U.S. have compromised and divided the Oregon Territory with Great Britain at the 49th parallel?

    In the east, the subject of Oregon was less personal and more political. In 1844 the Democrats nominated James K. Polk, an unknown candidate from Tennessee. It appeared as though the Whig Party candidate, Henry Clay, would win in a landslide. Very few Americans had ever heard the name Polk, but Clay's illustrious career was widely known. However, Polk was an excellent strategist. He tapped into the public mood and realized that manifest destiny was the very issue that could lead him to victory. Polk called for expansion that included Texas, California, and the entire Oregon territory. The northern boundary of Oregon was the latitude line of 54 degrees, 40 minutes. "Fifty-four forty or fight!" was the popular slogan that led Polk to victory against all odds.
    [​IMG]John Mix Stanley
    Oregon City, along the banks of the Willamette River, the final stop along the Oregon Trail as it appeared in 1848.
    Claiming the territory in an election campaign was one thing. Acquiring it from the powerful British was another. Although Polk blustered about obtaining the entire territory from Britain, he was secretly willing to compromise. Trouble was brewing with Mexico in the south. Surely the new nation could ill afford to fight Mexico in the southwest and the British in the northwest simultaneously. Nevertheless, Polk boldly declared to Great Britain that joint occupation would end within one year. The British were confident they could win, but by 1846 they were vastly outnumbered in Oregon by a margin of greater than six to one. In June of that year, Britain proposed splitting Oregon at the 49th parallel. Polk agreed to the compromise, and conflict was avoided.