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20mm cannon time?

#1
Many years ago I had a couple of weeks with the Bundeswher, and sat through a ( largely tedious ) lecture on their ORBAT. Tedious, until they mentioned the fact that their Fire Support Company had ?quad mounted 20mm cannon.

I've wondered for a while if this would be of use out in Afg - either in the FOBs, or mounted on FSG vehicles.

Reading the comments below made me think the subject is worth discussing...

Fallschirmjager said:
grimbo said:
Been working with an Lithuanian guy recently , he was telling me that when the Russians started to lose a lot of convoys when they were in Afghan they fitted twin 20mm AA guns to trucks either end of the convoy , after a while any convoy so equiped was more or less left alone by Terry
Way to go ?
Absolute rubbish. Your friend is a very big mong.
Thoughts?
 
#3
Bravo_Bravo said:
Many years ago I had a couple of weeks with the Bundeswher, and sat through a ( largely tedious ) lecture on their ORBAT. Tedious, until they mentioned the fact that their Fire Support Company had ?quad mounted 20mm cannon.

I've wondered for a while if this would be of use out in Afg - either in the FOBs, or mounted on FSG vehicles.

Reading the comments below made me think the subject is worth discussing...

Fallschirmjager said:
grimbo said:
Been working with an Lithuanian guy recently , he was telling me that when the Russians started to lose a lot of convoys when they were in Afghan they fitted twin 20mm AA guns to trucks either end of the convoy , after a while any convoy so equiped was more or less left alone by Terry
Way to go ?
Absolute rubbish. Your friend is a very big mong.
Thoughts?
The only 20mm cannon I am aware of in German ground forces are the single 20mm mounted on Wiesel vehicles. The Luftwaffe air defence troops used to have towed twin 20mm mounts but they are gone now.
 
#4
I remember the ZSU-23/4 being used in the ground offensive role in and around Bosnia/Croatia in 1993/4. Highly effective against buildings/personnel and vehicles. Bloody big mess after a few rounds from that anti-aircraft weapon into soft, ground based targets. Something similar in AFG might be a great force multiplier but it would play havoc with the collateral damage statistics!!!
 
#6
Sun_Too said:
In the German armed forces, the Rheinmetall Rh 202 20 mm is used in the Marder AFV (SPz), the Wiesel light armoured "weapon carrier" and the Luchs reconnaisance veh.

The twin AA gun was in use until 1992 in the Air Force.
Isn't the Luchs gone too, replaced by the Fennek?

I forgot about the Marder; I assume the Wiesel is used by light-role units or those using the Fuchs.
 
#7
I thought they just had 2 Shilkas embedded in the convoy? And would just let them off the chain if someone decided it was a good idea to.......... oh dear I'm collecting my 72 Virginians.
 
#9
GeneralMalaise said:
I remember the ZSU-23/4 being used in the ground offensive role in and around Bosnia/Croatia in 1993/4. Highly effective against buildings/personnel and vehicles. Bloody big mess after a few rounds from that anti-aircraft weapon into soft, ground based targets. Something similar in AFG might be a great force multiplier but it would play havoc with the collateral damage statistics!!!
I think you'll find something similair, nay identical deployed with the sovs to that very place.

Didn't affect the outcome with them.
 
#10
frigate23 said:
I thought they just had 2 Shilkas embedded in the convoy? And would just let them off the chain if someone decided it was a good idea to.......... oh dear I'm collecting my 72 Virginians.
In Chechnya at least they also used ZU-23-2s, twin towed mounts, mounted on trucks and MT-LBs.
 
#12
Yes, the German armed forces are being "adjusted" to the peace dividend, but, unless they actually sell their stuff to other countries (as they sold the Leopard 2 to 15 other countries) it's still there in some great big warehouse [methinks]. The fact that new stuff is developed does not mean it will be introduced in big series.

So far, the Fennek is introduced in the German Army with a total of 202 vehicles. The Luchs is still kept in socalled Stabilizierungskraefte or forces of lower readiness.
 

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#15
Ilech, why indeed? Being philosophical, I suppose you go to war with the equipment you have (Rumsfeld 2003), some of which was developed 40 years ago. In between, new kinds of operations in new operating environments appear and so new "stuff" is developed and introduced.

The picture above showing a Fennek and a Dingo is a case in point; below is also a Dingo 2 which of course is an improved version of the Dingo, they all have different pros and cons depending on the scenario - typically in mobility/firepower/protection. More firepower usually means less mobility etc.

The Dingo is probably good against IEDs, but the puny 7,62 mm MG is less effective than a 30 mm Rarden or Bushmaster II.
 

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#17
Sun_Too said:
Ilech, why indeed? Being philosophical, I suppose you go to war with the equipment you have (Rumsfeld 2003), some of which was developed 40 years ago. In between, new kinds of operations in new operating environments appear and so new "stuff" is developed and introduced.

The picture above showing a Fennek and a Dingo is a case in point; below is also a Dingo 2 which of course is an improved version of the Dingo, they all have different pros and cons depending on the scenario - typically in mobility/firepower/protection. More firepower usually means less mobility etc.

The Dingo is probably good against IEDs, but the puny 7,62 mm MG is less effective than a 30 mm Rarden or Bushmaster II.
Thank you Sun-Too a fair answer to an honest question.
 
#19
I suppose the question of why mount large calibre cannons onto convoy defence pickets is a question that could be answered by the ambushers.

Getting your immediate area or cover pummeled by multiple cannons spewing out out 20mm or above rounds.....hopefully high explosive rounds at that would really put a downer on your day.

Remember seeing a Russian clip of this happening,they just let rip at the Taliban positions up in the hills and the mountainside just erupted into a whirlwind of explosions,clouds of debris and basically became rather unpleasent rapidly becoming rather fatal for the talibs hiding behind some rocks.
 

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