1984 vs Brave New World - Which are we closest to?

[Dicky Ticker]

Not sure if we this is the right forum (although this is more of a current affairs question than a literary review) so please move it if there is a better place for it.

There has been much talk about how the US at the moment appears to be stumbling towards Orwells creation of Air Strip One, but there are some aspects which are, or could very well be, slowly meandering into what Huxley imagined. With the divide between rich and poor in many countries looking more like Brave New World, the technological advancements in mobile phones and social media appear to lean more towards the Big Brother scenario, especially with the media giants clamping down on those with what is perceived as the "wrong opinion".

Or alternatively, are we combining the two? Could the rise in drug use in certain areas be akin to the Soma induced happiness, while at the same time the drive to "equality" takes the party vs proles societal structure as a goal.

There are some interesting comparisons of the two to be read, the link below is to one but youtube has more. Are we willingly walking into a world where the ruling classes control everything and we are happy to let them?

 

[Tappet]

I think that during lockdown, we're closer to 'The Machine Stops'.

 

[lokiuk]

If anything if you want to see a dystopian vision of the future, one possible one is in China where it could be argued that a society that is in theory a communist one seems to be more like a fascist state in reality, where whole elements of society are reprogrammed to be model citizens, where the surveillance state of 1984 is a reality and where any voices of dissent are crushed

 

[RangdoOfArg]

Brave New World. Social Media is soma.
Less glibly, the stupid assumption that the world is in the gloop of ‘lockdown’.
I’m no conspiracy theorist, but this stuff has to stop soon.

 

[Biggish]

I’d go so far as to say that Huxley and Orwell would be horrified.

 

[76mill]

Epsilon semi morons behaving as predicted.

 

[NSP]

If anything if you want to see a dystopian vision of the future, one possible one is in China where it could be argued that a society that is in theory a communist one seems to be more like a fascist state in reality, where whole elements of society are reprogrammed to be model citizens, where the surveillance state of 1984 is a reality and where any voices of dissent are crushed

And there are "special" camps, too...

 

[Electromagnetic]

If anything if you want to see a dystopian vision of the future, one possible one is in China where it could be argued that a society that is in theory a communist one seems to be more like a fascist state in reality, where whole elements of society are reprogrammed to be model citizens, where the surveillance state of 1984 is a reality and where any voices of dissent are crushed

This but additionally we need to understand how the PRC have been empowered to the point where they now have so much reach and commercial domination in so many areas. In the seventies we associated Chinese and "Made in Hong Kong" rightly or wrongly with low quality gimmicks. Now quality and sophistication is much improved.

The Soviets had cheap but robust cameras and cars that were affordable. The USSR remained shut except for some scientific endeavour, rigged sports and investment by FIAT for example. Russia now is considered more of a Mafioso state, although Putin talks of past Soviet greatness. @Condottiere has told us the Muscovite mindset.

French socialists seem to have triggered a lot of this. Then the KGB set out to infiltrate Western organisations and education and "turn" them. That effect has, alas, outlasted the original state that initiated it. The current Kremlin use it for mischief. Putin enjoys a state of chaos abroad and supposed stability at home.

China started to open up to the West following Western investments there. This was followed by outsourcing on an incredible scale. By now they had gained trust. Now PRC has turned the power balance around, with a lot of corporations by the danglies and consumers have less choice of where the products are manufactured. Flexibility and developing some willingness to put aside Maoist absolutism has given them more power than they could have dreamt of.

Over here we still have idiots who worshipped Mao, Quartermaster McDonnell for example, and every generation seems to have spawned yet more would be communists. Few of them seem to realise that Marx never worked, never earned, borrowed and never paid back. Money for nothing and his kicks for free. (Oh, not what dire Straits had in mind?)

 

[Dicky Ticker]

I’d go so far as to say that Huxley and Orwell would be horrified.

I can just imagine it "Guys, the books were fiction..."

 

[Emcon Ecomcon]

Not sure if we this is the right forum (although this is more of a current affairs question than a literary review) so please move it if there is a better place for it.

There has been much talk about how the US at the moment appears to be stumbling towards Orwells creation of Air Strip One, but there are some aspects which are, or could very well be, slowly meandering into what Huxley imagined. With the divide between rich and poor in many countries looking more like Brave New World, the technological advancements in mobile phones and social media appear to lean more towards the Big Brother scenario, especially with the media giants clamping down on those with what is perceived as the "wrong opinion".

Or alternatively, are we combining the two? Could the rise in drug use in certain areas be akin to the Soma induced happiness, while at the same time the drive to "equality" takes the party vs proles societal structure as a goal.

There are some interesting comparisons of the two to be read, the link below is to one but youtube has more. Are we willingly walking into a world where the ruling classes control everything and we are happy to let them?

The simple answer is were talking about the replacement of religion. With systems, that grant innumerable distraction and unrestrained pleasure in private and public displays of virtue and solidarity in public for the party and all controlled by volunteers/party workers who only have our best interests at heart.

The two crucial points absent at the minute:-
1. At the local level, the evolution of the word 'Communities' always has a chilling effect on me, because politicians keep promoting the politicisation of all levels of community worker to a loyalty to something greater than the community..
2. Opposition to the party is a mental health problem. The growing alliance of psychology with the woke humanities, is another chilling effect on free speech, because it provides a link to the law.

 

[Blogg]

This will help. No, really....

A wristband that tells your boss if you are unhappy

Technology to help our mental wellbeing has grown in popularity during the coronavirus lockdowns.

www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Mediaeval]

Not sure if we this is the right forum (although this is more of a current affairs question than a literary review) so please move it if there is a better place for it.

There has been much talk about how the US at the moment appears to be stumbling towards Orwells creation of Air Strip One, but there are some aspects which are, or could very well be, slowly meandering into what Huxley imagined. With the divide between rich and poor in many countries looking more like Brave New World, the technological advancements in mobile phones and social media appear to lean more towards the Big Brother scenario, especially with the media giants clamping down on those with what is perceived as the "wrong opinion".

Or alternatively, are we combining the two? Could the rise in drug use in certain areas be akin to the Soma induced happiness, while at the same time the drive to "equality" takes the party vs proles societal structure as a goal.

There are some interesting comparisons of the two to be read, the link below is to one but youtube has more. Are we willingly walking into a world where the ruling classes control everything and we are happy to let them?

Weird; we were only just talking about this in the office yesterday! I plumped for Huxley, as his future was of a more subtle, suffocating sort of control.

But, in essence both were right, warning that human affairs will always involve a small elite working to control the rest of us, whilst we in turn fight to retain our individual freedoms...

 

[Not a Boffin]

It's both. You have the reality TV shows to fascinate the epsilons and you have the left - in particular the identity politics faction - treating 1984 as some sort of manual.

 

[Emcon Ecomcon]

Weird; we were only just talking about this in the office yesterday! I plumped for Huxley, as his future was of a more subtle, suffocating sort of control.

But, in essence both were right, warning that human affairs will always involve a small elite working to control the rest of us, whilst we in turn fight to retain our individual freedoms...

You missed the third group i.e. the Pigs from Animal Farm.. The exploiters who seek to represent us in our fight for freedoms, but end up becoming the new elite. Its that group, who see opposition to the revolution as criminal and the ones we should be very careful with, as they're are on the rise now.

 

[Dicky Ticker]

You missed the third group i.e. the Pigs from Animal Farm.. The exploiters who seek to represent us in our fight for freedoms, but end up becoming the new elite. Its that group, who see opposition to the revolution as criminal and the ones we should be very careful with, as they're are on the rise now.

So many three letter acronyms to choose from.....

 

[Electromagnetic]

You missed the third group i.e. the Pigs from Animal Farm.. The exploiters who seek claim to represent us in our fight for freedoms, but end up becoming the new elite. Its that group, who see opposition to the revolution as criminal and the ones we should be very careful with, as they're are on the rise now.

May I suggest a minor alteration to the above?

 

[Mediaeval]

You missed the third group i.e. the Pigs from Animal Farm.. The exploiters who seek to represent us in our fight for freedoms, but end up becoming the new elite. Its that group, who see opposition to the revolution as criminal and the ones we should be very careful with, as they're are on the rise now.

Yes, To a point I'd agree, although the aim of the Pigs from the outset is to become the new elite. What they are very good at is hanging onto the coat-tails of a successful disruptor to get themselves close to the new seat of power before finally emerging as the elite.

In some cases they will wait for the death of the disruptor, in others they will overthrow him (in Animal Farm, the other pigs either drove Snowball away or killed him). This is one of the reasons why clever disruptors always keep their followers in a state of permanent fear and at each other's throats.

A policy which can of course backfire, or leave no succession at all....

 

[Emcon Ecomcon]

Yes, To a point I'd agree, although the aim of the Pigs from the outset is to become the new elite. What they are very good at is hanging onto the coat-tails of a successful disruptor to get themselves close to the new seat of power before finally emerging as the elite.

In some cases they will wait for the death of the disruptor, in others they will overthrow him (in Animal Farm, the other pigs either drove Snowball away or killed him). This is one of the reasons why clever disruptors always keep their followers in a state of permanent fear and at each other's throats.

A policy which can of course backfire, or leave no succession at all....

History is replete with examples and I think Orwell, saw Stalin and his coterie as no different to the evolution of the French Terror. So its no coincidence, he named the leading pig as napoleon.

To translate that today, I suppose you can see the same approach embedded less at the national level and very much so at the international level. Everytime I listen to a UN Representative or other notable for some world entity, it puts me in mind of the pigs, as they're are no longer ordinary humans and transcended the nation.

 

[endure]

The USSR remained shut except for some scientific endeavour, rigged sports and investment by FIAT for example.

They were selling liquid ammonia to the USA in 1981.

 

[Electromagnetic]

They were selling liquid ammonia to the USA in 1981.

They were buying wheat as well if I recall correctly. There also were some Westerner's studying and working there, such as Peter Hitchens for example but it wasn't a "free" and open country. The PRC tolerates commercial enterprise and consumerism now because it brings them capital. I think Georgia was the first to embrace capitalism, while the USSR was in it's final years.