1982, Army Hele shot down by RN

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#1
I read somewhere that 'its now a well known fact' that the RN shot down an Army Hele during the Falkalnds Conflict/Liberation/Election Winning War.

But I seem to be missing that little gem from my data banks. Can anyone help?

I presume because it is RN shooting down an Army hele I assume it is not the Hereford helicopter that was assigned to an Albatross IIRC.

Thanks

Mr H
 
#2
Can't remember the details but IIRC it was a gazelle / scout in the San Carlos area. Stray Sea Dart or some such.

T C
 
#5
From an Argentinian site

The lack of discipline and amphibious training in the Army and a dearth of communications led to friendly-fire casualties. The first such incident occurred on the night of 5 June, when HMS Cardiff mistakenly shot down one of 5 Brigade's Gazelle helicopters. Four factors contributed to this unfortunate accident:



[] Unaccustomed to operating with the Royal Navy, 5 Brigade did not have a naval liaison officer attached.

[] The brigade failed to signal the flight to Major General Jeremy Moore's headquarters so the Royal Navy could be informed.

[] Rear Admiral Sandy Woodward failed to inform either Moore or Clapp that Cardiff had set up an "ambush" for Argentine C-130 transport aircraft making nightly runs to and from the mainland.

[] Gazelle's identification, friend or foe, was turned off because the device negatively interacted with other onboard electronics. Cardiff picked up the Gazelle on radar and, based on its speed and direction, assumed it was one of the C-130s. Not expecting friendly aircraft in his area, Cardiff's captain ordered the Sea Dart missile crew to shoot down the aircraft. (4)

http://www.malvinasonline.com.ar/g82/artic/part.php?recordID=60
 
#9
western said:
From an Argentinian site

The lack of discipline and amphibious training in the Army and a dearth of communications led to friendly-fire casualties. The first such incident occurred on the night of 5 June, when HMS Cardiff mistakenly shot down one of 5 Brigade's Gazelle helicopters. Four factors contributed to this unfortunate accident:



[] Unaccustomed to operating with the Royal Navy, 5 Brigade did not have a naval liaison officer attached.

[] The brigade failed to signal the flight to Major General Jeremy Moore's headquarters so the Royal Navy could be informed.

[] Rear Admiral Sandy Woodward failed to inform either Moore or Clapp that Cardiff had set up an "ambush" for Argentine C-130 transport aircraft making nightly runs to and from the mainland.

[] Gazelle's identification, friend or foe, was turned off because the device negatively interacted with other onboard electronics. Cardiff picked up the Gazelle on radar and, based on its speed and direction, assumed it was one of the C-130s. Not expecting friendly aircraft in his area, Cardiff's captain ordered the Sea Dart missile crew to shoot down the aircraft. (4)

http://www.malvinasonline.com.ar/g82/artic/part.php?recordID=60
While what that website says about the friendly fire inncedent tallies with what ive read when it says:
The British claim Plymouth survived the war, but at least one Argentine source, written well after the war, reports it as having been sunk. (23) Another Argentine account suggests the Daggers sank Yarmouth, and the same day an accidental Harrier attack sank Plymouth in Falkland Sound. (24)
I feel it talks a load of Bollocks.
 
#10
Mr Happy said:
I read somewhere that 'its now a well known fact' that the RN shot down an Army Hele during the Falkalnds Conflict/Liberation/Election Winning War.



Mr H, could easily have been an election loosing war, as it was a very close run thing. Artillery shells down to a few rounds per gun when the surrender came etc etc. Saying that, there is also the school of thought that the war had no bearing on the next election, as the opposition were un-electable in 1983. Hugh Bicheno's book (Razors Edge) gives a good account of this.
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#11
para-dox said:
Mr H, could easily have been an election loosing war, as it was a very close run thing. Artillery shells down to a few rounds per gun when the surrender came etc etc. Saying that, there is also the school of thought that the war had no bearing on the next election, as the opposition were un-electable in 1983. Hugh Bicheno's book (Razors Edge) gives a good account of this.
As a student of Politics, a man about town and of course, a old bloke, I well remember that the Tories won the 1983 election on the back of a lot of Union Flag waving and of course they held the election as soon as reasonably decent. Certainly they won the election because of the war. The 1.5million extra on the dole from 1979 to 1983 would have killed them otherwise.

That it was a close run thing is only an academic truth. I am afraid that the reality is that the RM and Para's were on the ground and they'd have slaughtered any and all argentines with whatever they had left. The casualties would have been horrible but once those units and the others were 'feet dry' there was nothing that was going to stop them, it would have just been a question of numbers.

If you disagree.. bring it on.
 
#12
Mr Happy, I was a para on the ground , in 2 para. Of course we were expecting to fight it out in Stanley, and were expecting to take the fight to Argentina . Anyway, thanks for your confidence in us, you sound like you'd have made a great General.
As for the war winning the elections for the tories, its conjecture. I was'nt really into politics as a young Tom, but from what i've subsequently read, they would have got a second term anyway. Look at this shower we've got now, its taken over 10 years for Joe public to start to wise up.
 
#13
'para-dox', please don't be tempted to argue with the strangely and inaptly, named - 'mr, happy', he does not know about apostrophes.

I shall be watching the editing to see if he, or she, corrects the child-like error.

PS: Like disagreeing with 'Stalin' Brown, disagreeing with 'moderators' on this site tends to be 'dangerous'.

PPS. When I was whizzing about the skies, the short-form of helicopter was: 'heli'. All changed now I suppose.

PPPS. If anyone finds this post offensive - it was meant to be.
 
#14
Mr Happy said:
Certainly they won the election because of the war.
If you think victory was inevitable in the Falklands, I'd suggest you have a read at Sandy Woodward's book about his command of the task force. We very nearly lost the war before a single Para or Marine set foot on the islands.

While the war certainly had a positive affect on the Tories' prospects, there's no way it was even mainly responsible for the election victory. Have you read Labour's 1983 manifesto?

Are you really saying that, if the Falklands had never happened, the electorate would have voted for:-

Unilateral nuclear disarmament
'Phasing out' of NATO
Abolition of the House of Lords
Renationalisation of BT, BAe etc
Nationalisation of the banking system - all of it
Nationalisation of the oil industry
Nationalisation of private sector, rented housing
Nationalisation of the film industry
Renationalisation of the energy industry
Renationalisation of the water industry
Soviet style central planning for all non-nationalised industries
'Workers cooperatives' to replace the board of directors in companies
Ban the import of cheaper, foreign goods (as in North Korea)
Government to set the price of goods (as in Zimbabwe)
TUC to have a veto on economic policy
Presumption of guilt for companies at tribunals
Massive tax increases for 'the rich'
All US forces to be expelled from UK
Private schools to be abolished
Trade unions to control education in secondary schools
Rent free housing for all run by 'tenants cooperatives'
No contracting out of government work
Abolish the D notice system
United Ireland
Repeal Prevention of Terrorism Act
Slash 'n burn the defence budget

and finally ....

Falklands to be given to Argentina.

As the Labour MP Gerald Kaufman said at the time 'it's the longest suicide note in history'.

In addition to the communist manifesto, we were treated to the sight of Michael Foot, our 'next Prime Minister' donning his donkey jacket and leading a tribe of crusties in a march on Aldermaston or singing along with the 'lesbians for peace' at Greenham Common.

Meanwhile, back at Labour HQ, we had the likes of Tony Benn explaining that bases vacated by the evicted US Air Force could easily be occupied by Soviet troops who would 'protect us from American aggression'.

Regardless of the Falklands, the Monster Raving Loonies had a better chance of winning the 1983 general election than Labour did.

Thatcher was the most unpopular PM in British history in 1981. By 1983 Labour had shot itself in both feet, the head and the nuts while snatching defeat from the jaws of victory and handing the Tories the biggest landslide since 1945.
 
#16
Thank you Ancient One for explaining to those who where just too young to remember, Old Labour.
Few things ever got on My T I T S more than the sight of Michael Foot, son of the Old Lord High Protest, Hugh, presenting the Labour Party's Wreath at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday in his Donkey Jacket.
john
To be honest I think it was a Reefer jacket, whatever that may be.
 
#17
It was a duffel coat, beloved of schoolboys everywhere .......in the sixties!




sorry about the picture, it was the best I could find
 
#19
The two guys from 205 who were killed were Maj Mike Forge and SSgt Jo Baker. I believe that one of the posters on this site was in that unit on those islands at the time it happened. He may wish to elaborate on this further.
 
#20
jonwilly said:
To be honest I think it was a Reefer jacket, whatever that may be.
It possibly had one in the pocket.
 

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