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1980s Medium Recce Regiments - what was the role of the Squadron Support Troops?

Dont know about then, but now there's separate Assault Pioneer and Assault Trooper courses (I'm not 100% certain on the name of the troopers course, but I think that's it), so that's maybe the difference
No, it was a TA thing. The training team ran the AP course over a series of weekends, as well as the ´full´ two week course, (it was 16 days when I did it).

The weekend modules were for soldiers who couldn´t take time off for the two week course, or who needed the two weeks every year for their annual camp.

There was a woman on my course who didn´t do the whole 16 days. She joined us after about a week. As I remember this was due to her work commitments, so presumably she completed the other modules at weekends.

There wasn´t much of the AP course that was relevant for us in a Yeomanry regiment. We didn´t need to be trained in watermanship as our regiment had no boats. Ditto water supply: if we ever deployed then our water would be supplied by the pioneers of the infantry brigade we were attached to. The knowledge of field fortifications, mines and demolitions was useful, but other things were just nice to know, so probably not worth having cavalry troopers taking up places.

I would imagine that pioneer skills would be useful for an assault troop or support troop within a recce squadron, but mine didn´t have one. I´ve never heard the term assault trooper before.

During my time in the TA the only holes I dug were to defecate into.
 
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I've been doing a bit of reading on how the UK's armoured capability has declined since the heady days of the 1980s and have seen a number of organisation charts which show the Medium Recce Regiments with a Support Troop of 4 x Spartan APCs in each squadron.

I vaguely remember a mate from my Yeomanry days telling me that it was to provide a dismount element for various tasks (OPs, traffic control, dismounted recce ptls etc). He also said that being relegated to "boot troop" was not something armoured recce crews aspired to and it was generally the less competent or new soldiers that got the job.

Seeing as how a Spartan can only carry about four blokes in the back what would their job would have been and what were they armed with?

Can anyone with any actual experience of Recce squadrons in the 1980s enlighten me?

Support Tp which I started off in, had the Spartans full of dismounts. We had the.... ****.... Not Jav, that was a good while ahead in the future.... A big chunky AT shoulder fired thing... Arse, can't remember now...

We did flank protection, crossing clearance / security, AT, and the dismount radar system... Again another blank, but the big unit you'd dump on the ground which would track vehicle movement in the direction it faced. Any ideas?

Support Tp was actually the desired position, as you got the Gucci courses such as assault trooper for dems etc and all the fun jobs. There was a lot of competition to get into it. There were no snipers etc attached, it was all just personal weapons with the SA80.

As for recce stuff, OPs, etc, (edited for senile brainfarts) we did those as well. Dismount recce, digging in for a couple of days, overwatch on likely movement corridors to call in fire missions (No forward observer attached, we just did it).

The thing about Support Tp, and perhaps my Regt viewed it differently from others, is that you could really shine because of the varied work you had to do. Jockeying about in a tin can all day is great and a cushy life, but for those in Support Tp, the bosses saw you out on your feet grafting like **** and doing some mental stuff.
 
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During my period with 80's H/Cav, (LG) they had Boot Troop.
Largely filled with the unwanted misfits from the Squadrons.

It did though become the place to be seen by those of a war like disposition when one of H/Cav's 'Them' returned to the Regiment.
He was first made Provo Sheriff then moved to Boot Troop. Massive overhaul time
 
During my period with 80's H/Cav, (LG) they had Boot Troop.
Largely filled with the unwanted misfits from the Squadrons.

It did though become the place to be seen by those of a war like disposition when one of H/Cav's 'Them' returned to the Regiment.
He was first made Provo Sheriff then moved to Boot Troop. Massive overhaul time
In 15/19H, Surveillance Troop (Spartan, ZB298, see above) were certainly not misfits. They ran Nijmegen Marches, entered Boeselager competitions and did the regiment credit.

As an aside. Out of Omagh, 76, about to do UNFICYP (both required a 6-troop Orbat), we took five times 3-car Scorpion troops and a GW Troop on the Mark 5 Swingfire Ferrets that had belonged to the sadly recently disbanded RAC Para Sqn.

Summer of 77, GW Troop fired the last RAC Swingfires at Otterburn, before the role went to RA. I believe GW may have subsequently come back to the RAC, but after my time.
 
Support Tp which I started off in, had the Spartans full of dismounts. We had the.... ****.... Not Jav, that was a good while ahead in the future.... A big chunky AT shoulder fired thing... Arse, can't remember now...

We did flank protection, crossing clearance / security, AT, and the dismount radar system... Again another blank, but the big unit you'd dump on the ground which would track vehicle movement in the direction it faced. Any ideas?

Support Tp was actually the desired position, as you got the Gucci courses such as assault trooper for dems etc and all the fun jobs. There was a lot of competition to get into it. There were no snipers etc attached, it was all just personal weapons with the SA80.

As for recce stuff, OPs, etc, (edited for senile brainfarts) we did those as well. Dismount recce, digging in for a couple of days, overwatch on likely movement corridors to call in fire missions (No forward observer attached, we just did it).

The thing about Support Tp, and perhaps my Regt viewed it differently from others, is that you could really shine because of the varied work you had to do. Jockeying about in a tin can all day is great and a cushy life, but for those in Support Tp, the bosses saw you out on your feet grafting like **** and doing some mental stuff.
Great post - thanks.

Just a quick question - were you issued GPMGs or LMGs?
 
Great post - thanks.

Just a quick question - were you issued GPMGs or LMGs?

GPMGs with the catch that they were the vehicle ones that you had to dismount from the vehicle. You'd carry a spare barrel in the side bin.

We didn't see LMGs until 2007 and Iraq.
In 15/19H, Surveillance Troop (Spartan, ZB298, see above) were certainly not misfits. They ran Nijmegen Marches, entered Boeselager competitions and did the regiment credit.

As an aside. Out of Omagh, 76, about to do UNFICYP (both required a 6-troop Orbat), we took five times 3-car Scorpion troops and a GW Troop on the Mark 5 Swingfire Ferrets that had belonged to the sadly recently disbanded RAC Para Sqn.

Summer of 77, GW Troop fired the last RAC Swingfires at Otterburn, before the role went to RA. I believe GW may have subsequently come back to the RAC, but after my time.

There were Strikers parked in the hangar in 2005 but they only moved to go on the low loaders and to some foreign buyer, no doubt.

During my period with 80's H/Cav, (LG) they had Boot Troop.
Largely filled with the unwanted misfits from the Squadrons.

It did though become the place to be seen by those of a war like disposition when one of H/Cav's 'Them' returned to the Regiment.
He was first made Provo Sheriff then moved to Boot Troop. Massive overhaul time

That was absolutely still the case when I joined, so whoever that was may have had a longer legacy than they realised. It actually got a bit reverse roled in that the wagon squadrons were seen as a bit 'meh', further advanced by the fact they got replaced for Snatches on Telic 10 and Jackals on Herrick 11.

Though when you're having a tough time of it, nothing feels as good as an old, stout and reliable Scimitar rocking up from nowhere to lob HE into the village you're taking heavy contact from!
 
In 15/19H, Surveillance Troop (Spartan, ZB298, see above) were certainly not misfits. They ran Nijmegen Marches, entered Boeselager competitions and did the regiment credit.

As an aside. Out of Omagh, 76, about to do UNFICYP (both required a 6-troop Orbat), we took five times 3-car Scorpion troops and a GW Troop on the Mark 5 Swingfire Ferrets that had belonged to the sadly recently disbanded RAC Para Sqn.

Summer of 77, GW Troop fired the last RAC Swingfires at Otterburn, before the role went to RA. I believe GW may have subsequently come back to the RAC, but after my time.
According to a BAOR organisational history, Striker went back to the RAC from the RHA (along with FV438 ) officially from 1st January 1983. FV438 went into storage a couple of years later, but Striker stayed with the recce regts.
 
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'Boot' or 5th Troop certainly were not a bunch of 'misfits' and certainly in the 16/5th on the annual excellent 'Brooke Cup' recce competitions often won it. As someone else mentioned they also competed in Boeselager competitions / Vid 88 against such soldiers as Spanish Legion (as usual other nations esp USA\Germany had 11 months of training for the comp, our regts had a couple of months). My best time was serving in Boot Troop.

Here's straight out of the 'Medium Recce Battle Notes' August 1985 on Boot Troop

Main role of a Support Troop is to assist reconnaissance squadrons in carrying out their tasks by providing mounted or dismounted OPs. In addition, the troop can provide specialised skills akin to that of an infantry rifle section and assault pioneer platoon

Manning:

a. 3 'task' Spartans, each containing an NCO cmdr and up to 5 support troopers to ensure dismounted capability. Note a min of 3 troopers should be used to carry out dismounted tasks. A vehicle cmdr and driver should always remain with the vehicle to offer logistic, as well as fire support, to the dimounted element. Where possible, a dismounted NCO should command the dismounted group.

b. Fourth 'command' Spartan contains the TL and his crew. This vehicle is used to carry the troops specialist equipment eg NOD A, Laser Target Marker (LTM), additional 66mm LAW (and we had 2 84mm Charlies G and four(?) 2 X LMG Bren), mines (inc Claymore & Bar), explosives and defence stores


Now, wont go into too much more but additionally to the above we had two Spy Glass thermal Imagers (generally used in OPs and whilst on night patrol 'behind the lines' (often flown in by the 2 x AAC Lynx attached to the Regt). Chainsaws (route denial), LMGs, LAW, Charlie G. The note above the fourth cmd vehicle wasn't quite true as there was far too much equipment for one 'command' vehicle to carry. All our Spartans had cages on the roof that carried the gubbins. Manpower numbers were only made up during war time footing, such as GW1, otherwise usually a crew of 3 for each Spartan.

Training..blah blah (Update: On top of already being trained as RAC crewmen)

  1. Basic Fieldcraft
  2. Mine lifting and laying
  3. Demolitions, inc procedure for demolition firing parties
  4. Setting up booby traps
  5. Dismounted recce through villages and close country
  6. House clearing
  7. Infantry section battle skills
  8. Recce foot patrols by day and night
  9. Air defence (t'was the All Arms AD Course)
  10. Operation of LTMs (complete section on that one in the Recce manual, SNCOs operated that)
  11. Operation of portable night surveillance devices (Spy Glass in my era)
So as can been seen, defo not 'misfits' and often trained in more diverse skills than the Sabre Troops. I'm not sure what other conventional arms were 'heli' dropped behind lines to carry out medium range recce at night!

They would carry out the other general tasks that a med recce regt did, such as Defensive and offensive ops, escorting ADM, traffic control, NBC surveillance and so forth

Just as a side note: Those who competed in Boeselager quite often ended up in the Brecons on a wee course
 
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'Boot' or 5th Troop certainly were not a bunch of 'misfits' and certainly in the 16/5th on the annual excellent 'Brooke Cup' recce competitions often won it. As someone else mentioned they also competed in Boeselager competitions / Vid 88 against such soldiers as Spanish Legion (as usual other nations esp USA\Germany had 11 months of training for the comp, we had couple of months). My best time was serving in Boot Troop.

Here's straight out of the 'Medium Recce Battle Notes' August 1985 on Boot Troop

Main role of a Support Troop is to assist reconnaissance squadrons in carrying out their tasks by providing mounted or dismounted OPs. In addition, the troop can provide specialised skills akin to that of an infantry rifle section and assault pioneer platoon

Manning:

a. 3 'task' Spartans, each containing an NCO cmdr and up to 5 support troopers to ensure dismounted capability. Note a min of 3 troopers should be used to carry out dismounted tasks. A vehicle cmdr and driver should always remain with the vehicle to offer logistic, as well as fire support, to the dimounted element. Where possible, a dismounted NCO should command the dismounted group.

b. Fourth 'command' Spartan contains the TL and his crew. This vehicle is used to carry the troops specialist equipment eg NOD A, Laser Target Marker (LTM), additional 66mm LAW (and we had 2 84mm Charlies G and four LMG), mines (bar as well), explosives and defence stores


Now, wont go into too much more but additionally to the above we had two Spy Glass thermal Imagers (generally used in OPs and whilst on night patrol 'behind the lines' (often flown in by the 2 x AAC Lynx attached to the Regt). Chainsaws (route denial), LMGs, LAW, Charlie G. The note above the fourth cmd vehicle wasn't quite true as there was far too much equipment for one 'command' vehicle to carry. All our Spartans had cages on the roof that carried the gubbins. Manpower numbers were only made up during war time footing, such as GW1, otherwise usually a crew of 3 for each Spartan.

Training..blah blah

  1. Basic Fieldcraft
  2. Mine lifting and laying
  3. Demolitions, inc procedure for demolition firing parties
  4. Setting up booby traps
  5. Dismounted recce through villages and close country
  6. House clearing
  7. Infantry section battle skills
  8. Recce foot patrols by day and night
  9. Air defence
  10. Operation of LTMs (complete section on that one)
  11. Operation of portable night surveillance devices (Spy Glass)
So as can been seen, defo not 'misfits' and often trained in more diverse skills than the Sabre Troops. I'm not sure what other conventional arms were 'heli' dropped behind lines to carry out medium range recce at night!

They would carry out the other general tasks that a med recce regt did, such as Defensive and offensive ops, escorting ADM, traffic control, NBC surveillance and so forth
You had chainsaws? Well aren't you fancy. We had blunt axes!
 
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