13 USMC Lts Discharged for Cheating

Discussion in 'US' started by jumpinjarhead, May 25, 2010.

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  1. It pains me to post this but at least our system seems to work to weed out those who cannot be trusted. I find it really incredible that we had even considered the football player who obviously has little idea about integrity. I hope the government pursues recovery of the cost of his education to us taxpayers.

    All in all quite disgusting.....

  2. How hard is that Nav test!? Integrity is a major ethos of many, if not most services. I am surprised they didn't get an opportunity to admit it and get back coursed though. Instant dismissal seems a bit of a harsh punishment for this IMHO.
  3. If you can't even cheat properly without getting caught then what use are you going to be in the services. Feckers would never have got through a tiffy course!
  4. Trouble is `Cheating` showed initative. Is that something not nutured in the US?
  5. If you don't cheat then you aren't trying hard enough.
  6. IMHO, it really does not matter how hard the test is. The point is one of honor and at least for USMC officers expected to set the example for their Marines, it must (and should always be) ZERO TOLERANCE. They can go do something else with their lives where such values are less important. I can but hope we hold the line in this area against the ever eroding "standard" of our "culture" that in effect says if you are not caught then you have done nothing wrong. Such attitudes are a natural result of the situational ethics that have been so popular for the last 50 years or so.
  7. Big difference in my view.
  8. Mine too.

    These men and women would sooner or later have been given positions of responsibility affecting not just the livelihoods and careers of others, but likely command in operational situations. And, given the extreme sensitivity inherent in modern operations, those in command need to hold and demonstrate a corresponding level of personal integrity at all times.

    While it’s sad that this sort of thing occurs it’s admirable that action has been taken and in such a public way. It does the USMC no injustice at all.
  9. Honour and integrity are fine. My concern with the US take on the subject is when it leads to telling tales on your supposed comrades. At best its unpleasant - at worst it leads a sense of isolation and every man for himself. Our version - for minor failings - would be to deal with the problem informally and internally. I saw a very good young Captain in US Army Intel lose his career over an off-duty Christmas day beer for his team. He was informed on by his deputy. Miserable cow !
  10. They obviously didn't have an instructor that suddenly needed to go for a 'dump' halfway through the test.
  11. Gremlin

    Gremlin LE Good Egg (charities)

  12. The most important prerequisite of a leader - after courage - is integrity. Those cheating recieved their just desserts. Sad to hear of this incident, the Marines I know, former and active, epitomise integrity in all they do.
    For all the comments alluding to being caught as a greater sin than actually cheating....bollocks. During my service I recall only one fellow officer cheating/lying, not such a coincidence he also lacked courage on operations, his Jocks detested him - last I heard he was in jail.... best place for him.
  13. Could this just be another part of the worldwide conspiracy to try and convince everyone that officers are taught to read a map?
  14. Again an integrity issue is different from a possible mistake of balancing initiative and judgment as it sounds like in the case of the Army Captain (depending on the details such as if he lied about it etc.). I am definitely not one of "zero defects" for young leaders in learning their craft and actually encourage such "stretching" so vital in new leaders finding their bearings.

    In a more fulsome answer to an earlier post about initiative etc., if the exercise had been a ""E&E" scenario etc. where creativity, boldness and initiative are needed, then that is altogether different. Even if one sets aside the inherently more important aspect of honor and integrity, in this case, however, there are specific rules established in a school setting since the students need to really learn critical skills that if not learned could jeopardize the mission. "Lost" units rarely take their assigned objectives on time and without screwing up the maneuver of adjacent units etc. and/or get Marines needlessly killed later in their careers.

    In addition, the students are being evaluated against each other in a very competitive environment that will have significant consequences in terms of the eventual specialties to which the officers are later assigned and it is not fair to their classmates and also can skew the evaluation of their skills etc. such that someone otherwise unqualified to be an infantry officer (due to weakness in field skills such as land navigation) could be assigned in error and the mistake may only be realized later in a mission-critical or life or death situation.

    All that being said, the key is still that for leaders expected in our culture to lead from the front by personal example, a failure in character as occurred here goes to the very heart and soul of our system and cannot be tolerated. IMHO it is even more important to have this standard for what some may see as "trivial" circumstances since if an officer will lie or cheat as occurred here in such situations, it is even more likely he or she will do it if the stakes are even higher. Compromise of one's honor is cumulative in that once you start, the next temptation becomes even easier to rationalize. We see this effect quite clearly and dramatically in the society at large.

    Given the sacred trust placed in our military forces under our Constitution and especially for commissioned officers who take a very specific oath in that regard and whose commissions expressly convey "special trust and confidence" in the holders, there simply can be NO compromise on this point and this is one area where the military (and the USMC by tradition even more so) must march to the beat of a different drum from the civilian society from which its members come.
  15. A very deep observation and one I continue to worry about in this age of electronic aids, whether for navigation in the dark of night over inhospitable and enemy filled terrain or in the marital bedroom. We lose our field skills such as land navigation etc. by over-reliance on electronic aids at our own peril ans my experience proves to me that Murphy is alive and well on exercise and in combat such that if something can go wrong it likely will at some point and that includes GPS, optics on weapons etc.

    I admit to being a veritable dinosaur on many issues and land navigation, like marksmanship is one of them. I made it a point to ensure that all my young officers were thoroughly drilled (by capable and experienced NCOs) on land navigation in all weather and terrain conditions BEFORE they ever led their own troops in the field. There are few worse things short of incompetence in combat that will ruin a leader's chances of earning the respect (obedience can be demanded but not respect) of his or her troops than getting them lost.