12 Week Vicars & Tarts Course

#4
Given 'they' managed to make the commissioning course 52 weeks, I'm sure 'they' found something relevant to fill another 4 weeks :)
 
#7
Used to be a 4 week course in the 70s.
think that is abit short, but these are Doctors, Lawyers and Clergy, whilst they must understand the background to the UK military and be able to react in Tactical situations - they will never be routinely expected to plan or execute in these areas. Are we just wasting valuable training resources and potentially damaging (through overtraining) much needed, high calibre capabilities.
 
#8
PQOs now do 10 weeks at RMAS on entry, equivalent to first term. They then go on to complete their Special to Arm trg.
 
#10
think that is abit short, but these are Doctors, Lawyers and Clergy, whilst they must understand the background to the UK military and be able to react in Tactical situations - they will never be routinely expected to plan or execute in these areas. Are we just wasting valuable training resources and potentially damaging (through overtraining) much needed, high calibre capabilities.
These people are commanders and Officers first, as all Officers are. Therefore, it is important they have have a solid basic understanding of military training. Many of these will go on to command Sqns and Regiments (which in my view is a joke, but that's a different argument) and therefore should have a good solid grounding to begin with.
 
#12
The Chaplain-General might take a different view. My understanding was that Padres are, first and foremost, Clerks in Holy Orders.
Technically speaking, only the Anglicans are clerks in Holy Orders. I'm not quite sure what the standing of the others are in legal terms...

But you are quite right - they do not command and their Commission is of a different type and even worded slightly differently. The only orders they should be issuing are in the bar...
 

Caecilius

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#13
These people are commanders and Officers first, as all Officers are. Therefore, it is important they have have a solid basic understanding of military training. Many of these will go on to command Sqns and Regiments (which in my view is a joke, but that's a different argument) and therefore should have a good solid grounding to begin with.
They are, but giving them several weeks of orders and estimate training is a waste of time. If the MO or a Lawyer is doing a combat estimate, something has gone horribly wrong.
 
#14
So back then to the start of this thread. Why and what on earth do they do at RMAS for 12 weeks then. Surely a month at a push is all they need to be able to look, and talk the part.

As said, if they need to plan and execute a platoon attack we are in the brown and smelly!
 
#15
As far as I can recall when the change happened, it was driven by the Medics who wanted a crunchier course since their lads and lasses might find themselves in deepest, darkest Helmand quickly after the course.

Quite what the beefed up course consists of, I don't know. Is it bespoke or basically a cut and paste from the First Term in its new incarnation? If it is the latter then I can see why it might need looking at again.
 

Caecilius

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#17
As far as I can recall when the change happened, it was driven by the Medics who wanted a crunchier course since their lads and lasses might find themselves in deepest, darkest Helmand quickly after the course.

Quite what the beefed up course consists of, I don't know. Is it bespoke or basically a cut and paste from the First Term in its new incarnation? If it is the latter then I can see why it might need looking at again.
One would expect them to fill a beefed up course with GPMG training, casevacs, FOB patrolling and other things relevant to a medic who is about to go into combat. What they actually do is take the normal Commissioning Course and teach about 1/3 of the stuff, including such important things as platoon attacks, orders and the seven questions. Utterly pointless.
 
#18
One would expect them to fill a beefed up course with GPMG training, casevacs, FOB patrolling and other things relevant to a medic who is about to go into combat. What they actually do is take the normal Commissioning Course and teach about 1/3 of the stuff, including such important things as platoon attacks, orders and the seven questions. Utterly pointless.
Hmm, pretty much what I was thinking in terms of what was needed - more of a Contemporary Operations Environment module for the sort of wars we are involved in at the moment and are actively conforming ourselves to. Perhaps like an extended non theatre-specific pre-OPTAG so that when they go to an actual OPTAG they can understand what is going on and can concentrate on the specifics of the environment?

I agree that needless repetition of how to plan attacks is nugatory - yes it is useful to understand what is going on around you, but a PQO should be be trained mainly to a standard where they are not a deadweight on those protecting them rather than to be the thrusting leader of a forlorn hope.
 
#20
Hmm, pretty much what I was thinking in terms of what was needed - more of a Contemporary Operations Environment module for the sort of wars we are involved in at the moment and are actively conforming ourselves to. Perhaps like an extended non theatre-specific pre-OPTAG so that when they go to an actual OPTAG they can understand what is going on and can concentrate on the specifics of the environment?

I agree that needless repetition of how to plan attacks is nugatory - yes it is useful to understand what is going on around you, but a PQO should be be trained mainly to a standard where they are not a deadweight on those protecting them rather than to be the thrusting leader of a forlorn hope.
So change the course to fit a war which will be over soon? Make it like OPTAG which is agile in order to teach current theatre specifics?

The commissioning course covers a war not the war and uses infantry training as a vehicle for leadership training. Like it or not the ethos is that all officers have that element of leadership.
 

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