12 Aug Terrorist attack in the US

#61
Shock horror, Maple excusing violence against people when it suits his narrative.
 
#62
Now on the subject of the car attack I think the police may have something to answer for. It appeared from what I saw that the police just stood back during the protests and let the rival groups wade into each other for the most part. Some idiot gets pissed off and decides to ram a car into people.

Letting violence escalate during protests is generally not a smart thing to do.
 
#63
(...) Note how it was reported Anti Fascist protestors and right wing extremists Not violent left and right demonstrators / protesters / feckwits thus the left are the good guys.

Anti Fa and Co aren't anti KKK or Neo Nazi - They are anti anything they don't like - the whole far left behaviour is in itself fascist in the extreme as the seek to violently oppose and prevent others viewpoints.

(...)
At the end of this post you will find ten samples of how the major news media are reporting it. I read each article until I found the first paragraph contrasting the two sides to see how they were described. Most described them as counter-protesters, or used similar phrases. The only one that used the term "anti-fascist" to introduce them was "The Independent". I don't know much about the latter newspaper, so I can't really comment on their use of this term.

I don't know what news media you are reading, but not many major mainstream news outlets seem to be describing them as "Anti Fascist protesters".

The news stories that I've seen describe the town where this is taking place as a small city hosting a university and with a very large student population. Wikipedia lists the university as being the city's main employer.

The university calendar states that student orientation for autumn semester begins in less than a week. UREG: Academic Calendars Given that, I imagine the city is presently full of newly arriving students with a lot of time on their hands. And I don't think I need to describe the sort of environment that this would create.

Given the nature of the protest and the demographics of the place it was being held, I don't find it too surprising that things turned out violently. The KKK and American Nazis who came to town for their protest would have to be pretty dim to imagine it turning out any other way.


Here's the list of news sources that I consulted to see how the news media were describing the two sides. I selected them by putting some search terms into Google and picking news sources that I've heard of. I'm not claiming that all of them are top notch news sites, but that wasn't the point.

The Guardian: Charlottesville: man charged with murder after car rams counter-protesters at far-right event
The deaths came at the end of a day marked by violent clashes between far-right nationalists and people who had come to protest their occupation of a downtown park containing a statue of the Confederate general Robert E Lee.
The BBC: bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-40913928/car-rams-into-crowd-of-people-at-charlottesville-rally
Violent clashes have erupted between white nationalists attending a far-right march and counter-protesters in the US state of Virginia.
The Independent: One dead as car hits crowd of anti-fascist protesters amid white-supremacist violence in Charlottesville
At least one person has been killed and many others injured after a car hit a crowd of anti-fascist protesters in Charlottesville, Virginia, as far-right groups gathered for a rally in the town.
The CBC: Civil rights probe launched after clashes at white nationalist rally in Virginia leave 1 dead
Saturday's rally had been planned as a protest against the city's plans to remove a statue of the Confederate general Robert E. Lee from a downtown park but became violent when the white nationalists holding the rally clashed with demonstrators who arrived to protest against racism.
The Globe and Mail: White nationalist rally in Virginia linked to three deaths, officials say
A car plowed into a crowd of people peacefully protesting a white nationalist rally Saturday in a Virginia college town, killing one person, hurting more than a dozen others and ratcheting up tension in a day full of violent confrontations.
US ABC: Justice Department opens investigation into deadly Charlottesville car-ramming
An Ohio man was charged with murder after a car plowed into a crowd of demonstrators following a foiled white nationalist rally Saturday in Charlottesville, Virginia, killing a 32-year-old woman and leaving 19 others injured, police and officials said.
CNN: Charlottesville Car Crash Suspect ID'd - CNN
One person died and 19 were injured Saturday when a car rammed a crowd of counterprotesters gathered to oppose a "Unite the Right" rally of white nationalist and other right-wing groups.
Fox News: Ohio man, 20, identified as suspect accused of driving car into Charlottesville protesters
The crash climaxed a day of violence in the university town that had been sparked by the arrival of hundreds of white nationalists protesting plans to remove a statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee from a public park.

Matt Korbon, a 22-year-old University of Virginia student, said several hundred counter-protesters were marching through a pedestrian mall downtown when ...
Australia ABC: One dead after car ploughs into protesters at US white supremacist rally
US President Donald Trump has condemned "hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides" after one person died when a car ploughed into a group of anti-racism protesters at a white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia.
South China Morning Post: Three dead, dozens injured at chaotic protest in southern US
A white nationalists’ rally erupted into deadly violence on Saturday as a car ploughed into a crowd while demonstrators and counter-protesters clashed, ...
 
Last edited:
#65
Now on the subject of the car attack I think the police may have something to answer for. It appeared from what I saw that the police just stood back during the protests and let the rival groups wade into each other for the most part. Some idiot gets pissed off and decides to ram a car into people.

Letting violence escalate during protests is generally not a smart thing to do.
Your eye-witness testimony is at odds with reports in the press. According to them, the Police separated the groups after "missile exchanges and intermittent melées" at around 11:40am. The car attack is reported to have happened two hours later.
How did the press get it so wrong?
 
#66
Your eye-witness testimony is at odds with reports in the press. According to them, the Police separated the groups after "missile exchanges and intermittent melées" at around 11:40am. The car attack is reported to have happened two hours later.
How did the press get it so wrong?
Hence I said from what I saw which was being reported on the news from videos at the scene. The news was also reporting at the time that the police were standing back at the scene.
 
#67
Hence I said from what I saw which was being reported on the news from videos at the scene.
Oh, I see. I always find it pays to take care in drawing conclusions from what, and how, the BBC chose to report events like this. I agree that the reporting invited the viewer to draw the conclusion that there was a full scale riot that included the use of a car as a weapon, but the details are actually quite different.
 
#68
(...) Note how it was reported Anti Fascist protestors and right wing extremists Not violent left and right demonstrators / protesters / feckwits thus the left are the good guys.

Anti Fa and Co aren't anti KKK or Neo Nazi - They are anti anything they don't like - the whole far left behaviour is in itself fascist in the extreme as the seek to violently oppose and prevent others viewpoints.

(...)
I should add by the way that I've seen no sign that the bulk of the people protesting against the outside protesters were anything other than the normal student population, plus the local citizens, neither of whom would be pleased to see the sort of people who came to defend the statue rocking up in their town.

What you are seeing there is a clash between two broad elements of society who have radically opposing views and little interest in compromise.

The overall situation isn't new. What has brought it to our attention is the increased level of violence, of which the car attack is the most notable.
 
#69
Oh, I see. I always find it pays to take care in drawing conclusions from what, and how, the BBC chose to report events like this. I agree that the reporting invited the viewer to draw the conclusion that there was a full scale riot that included the use of a car as a weapon, but the details are actually quite different.
It is the trouble with online news, they can report one thing for a while then edit the story later.
 
#70
Hence I said from what I saw which was being reported on the news from videos at the scene. The news was also reporting at the time that the police were standing back at the scene.
I to read that on a Twitter, the police were allowing the two parties to thrash it out so to speak, not such a clever move it turns out.
 
#71
According to American websites, the Mayor of the city ordered the police to declare the Right Wing rally illegal and disperse the crowd. In spite of them having been given permission in advance to hold it.

The view of some Americans is that the mayor panicked when it started kicking off and over-stepped his authority when he ordered cops to shut down the prostest rally and disperse the crowds. It's been suggested the mayor and the city could very well be sued for denying protesters their rights to freedom of speech.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
#72
I should add by the way that I've seen no sign that the bulk of the people protesting against the outside protesters were anything other than the normal student population, plus the local citizens, neither of whom would be pleased to see the sort of people who came to defend the statue rocking up in their town.

What you are seeing there is a clash between two broad elements of society who have radically opposing views and little interest in compromise.

The overall situation isn't new. What has brought it to our attention is the increased level of violence, of which the car attack is the most notable.
I think a better way of putting it is that you have a liberal fascist group with an ideological requirement to control the historical narrative to further their agenda and which involves removing symbols and re-writing history. Then you have another group that resents being under constant cultural attack but which contains elements, often extreme, who are also into re-writing history and identity politics from the other direction.

In fairness to the BBC report that I saw last night, while it completely mis-categorised Lee as primarily fighting for slavery and by extension suggested that there were no reasonable grounds for opposing the removal of his statue, it did show two people from either side shaking hands and calling for peaceful discussion and dialogue.

Personally I couldn't care less if liberal fascists and white supremacists bash seven bells out of each other as long as the politically intemperate and historically illiterate leave the rest of us in peace to understand that history is complex and often uncomfortable, that no historical figure or movement was faultless and that there isn't a statue of anyone in the world that you couldn't make an argument for removing (If anti-racism's your thing, the statue of Gandhi in Parliament Square should be sold to the pikies instanter).
 
#73
It's called free speech, there's no reason for the far-right to exist......(or Far left for balance)

And to use the scare phrase 'Antifa' when what you really meant is 'people against the KKK and Neo-Nazis' is a bit odd
One side is being painted as White Supremacists, and KKK and Neo-Nazis. Many of those that objected to the removal of the Lee statue probably are, although at least some must have been motivated by objecting to the eradication of their history and culture.

It's interesting how the narrative of this story has been managed from the government of Virginia down to Sky News, painting the fascists on one side as the bad guys while the fascists on the other side are the good guys.
 
#74
Lincoln is unlikely to have owned slaves, but Washington certainly did. I think they should tear down his statues and rename the capital city as well as all those states named after white supremacists (Washington, Georgia, both Carolinas, Virginia, Louisiana, Maryland). How about all those Thomas Jefferson High Schools in Virginia. They're named after a slave owning child rapist. Rewriting history is a big job.
 
#75
Your eye-witness testimony is at odds with reports in the press. According to them, the Police separated the groups after "missile exchanges and intermittent melées" at around 11:40am. The car attack is reported to have happened two hours later.
How did the press get it so wrong?
Check out any of the live streams that are still up on Youtube. The police did not manage to keep them separate before the violence and they definitely didn't separate them once the violence began. After almost 40 minutes of watching them fight the police pushed the right out of the park into the counter protest. The right fought their way through them and the whole problem moved 300m down the road.

The only separating I have seen the police doing so far was between the militia and the counter protesters shortly before the collision. They only managed that because the militia weren't actually fighting anyone and the counter protesters were just standing at a distance shouting at them.
 
#76
I think the thing is, in the UK we are use to very well regulated protest.

The Public Order Act imposes liability and restrictions for notification of public rallies (over and above the specific restrictions in London).

Coupled with good public order policing experience, deployment of tactical advisors to the police command structure and protest liaison officers to the protest organisers - the overt side of planned public order policing is pretty well sewn up.

Obviously there are covert tactics which may or may not be employed; for which you can read any of the blogs alleging every other protestor is an undercover police officer (every protestor in Kent).

Obviously spontaneous disorder is another matter; the likes of the disorder in Hackney for example cannot by it's nature be controlled.

Quite how the local US police were supposed to cope with such a heavily armed militia turning up is beyond me. Watching some of the footage you can see local and state police uniforms; and now the federals have turned up for the post-bunfight investigation.

With the amount of firearms about; it's quite impressive that so few are dead quite frankly.

I would imagine the post-incident investigation is going to require a mass trawl of CCTV and so forth for the identification of offenders.

It all relies however on whatever local, state and federal offences may have been committed.
 
#78
One side is being painted as White Supremacists, and KKK and Neo-Nazis. Many of those that objected to the removal of the Lee statue probably are, although at least some must have been motivated by objecting to the eradication of their history and culture.

It's interesting how the narrative of this story has been managed from the government of Virginia down to Sky News, painting the fascists on one side as the bad guys while the fascists on the other side are the good guys.

Seen loads of pics of guys doing the Nazi salute.

Saw a pic on facebook group of a black guy holding an Antifa flag but that hasn't been shared at all. We're definitely only getting half the story.
 
#79
One side is being painted as White Supremacists, and KKK and Neo-Nazis. Many of those that objected to the removal of the Lee statue probably are, although at least some must have been motivated by objecting to the eradication of their history and culture.

It's interesting how the narrative of this story has been managed from the government of Virginia down to Sky News, painting the fascists on one side as the bad guys while the fascists on the other side are the good guys.
Always has been so, hasn't it.

Police go in against "right wing nutters" = Police keeping the peace

Police go in against "left wing nutters" = Police brutality.

White guy gets a thump on the head = stamping out racism

Anyone else gets thump on the head = Institutional racism.

And, by extension, we come back to the oldest of the chestnuts, "Terrorist" or "Freedom Fighter".

The current agenda is that anything construed as being against absolutely any sort of moonbattery from the Left MUST go, we must free ourselves from the oppression and chains of our history by rewriting it to suit our more enlightened knowledge in these modern times.

ISTR this sort of nonsense happening before, I wonder how long it will be before certain books will have to be hidden in secret vaults so they can be kept for posterity...
 
#80
I think the thing is, in the UK we are use to very well regulated protest.

The Public Order Act imposes liability and restrictions for notification of public rallies (over and above the specific restrictions in London).

Coupled with good public order policing experience, deployment of tactical advisors to the police command structure and protest liaison officers to the protest organisers - the overt side of planned public order policing is pretty well sewn up.

Obviously there are covert tactics which may or may not be employed; for which you can read any of the blogs alleging every other protestor is an undercover police officer (every protestor in Kent).

Obviously spontaneous disorder is another matter; the likes of the disorder in Hackney for example cannot by it's nature be controlled.

Quite how the local US police were supposed to cope with such a heavily armed militia turning up is beyond me. Watching some of the footage you can see local and state police uniforms; and now the federals have turned up for the post-bunfight investigation.

With the amount of firearms about; it's quite impressive that so few are dead quite frankly.

I would imagine the post-incident investigation is going to require a mass trawl of CCTV and so forth for the identification of offenders.

It all relies however on whatever local, state and federal offences may have been committed.
I have yet to see any footage of the armed militia members causing any trouble at all, other than how much they incite the counter protesters just by being there. They were not the problem, Brits just get fixated on them because we are not used to seeing armed people at protests.

What the police completely failed to cope with was the far right and ANTIFA fighting with each other. US cops over the past year have repeatedly failed in maintaining separation during these events and this is the second incident this year where they seemed unable to separate them once they begin fighting so have just stood back and pretended it wasn't happening. For all the things US cops are good at they are shockingly bad at public order and most worryingly an awful lot of them don't seem to realise how bad they are.
 

Similar threads

Latest Threads

Top