Discussion in 'RLC' started by General Melchett, Sep 10, 2004.

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  1. General Melchett

    General Melchett LE Moderator

    Does anyone have any comments about 11 EOD Ops room.

    OOOOOOPPS sorry, I mean the JSEODOC.

    Recent examples:

    Ops room to ECM: Job on.
    ECM to Ops: Fookin 'ell. Sorted.
    Ops to ECM: Is the Operator with you?
    ECM to Ops: Erm, no this is the ECM blokes.
    Ops to ECM: Sorry my mistake, cancel my last. Do you have the number of teh EOD operator?
    ECM to Ops: No. Do you?
    Ops to ECM: No.

    and another:

    Tasks RE team to CMD at least 5 hours from Wimbish.
    RLC team less than an hour away from same CMD suggests they may respond first to advise the Police and get the ball rolling.
    Ops room stamps its foot and says "I'm in charge".
    RLC team goes back to drinking tea and hopes good relationship with the Police in that area is still intact in 3 days time when RE have finished.
  2. Its good to see things never change...................!
  3. It does amuse me how there are occasions when the ops room are suggesting RSP's to you on route to the task. :D
  4. In fairness to to the Ops wallahs, the watchkeepers are not EOD operators. RN, RAF and RE have a JNCO each, I think, and the RLC is represented by AGC JNCOs, rather bizarrely in the opinion of the investigating AT.

    The Ops Officer and Ops WO, both of whom I know and can vouch for their being top blokes, are under a degree of pressure to not rock the remit boat. Simply doesn't do to give those of the big-badged persuasion an opportunity to throw teddys out of their red winged prams. If you see what I mean.

    Having said that, I would be interested to hear (via PMs) of suggesting RSPs -bomb doctor - and the a/c bomb incident -melchers, old bean. One is always on the lookout for Pig Sick material. :wink:
  5. I take it all back. It took the wedgies 14 hours to get their arrses up there to declare it a non-ammunition item. I despair.
  6. This is so passe, you can still buy LPs as well guys if you know where to look..

    The Sappers and Miners, on one hand, and the RAOC on the other, both hage a great heritage, but in these lean times, it must be time to move on to a new Joint Service world of EOD??

  7. Why is it that when, say, two infantry regiments , or an infantry regiment and a corps slag each other off its seen as the regimental system at work, but when we and the sappers are at it hammer and tongs, its a bad thing?

    As I've said elsewhere, I think a joint EOD corps, seperate from our parent corps would be a good thing. But unless that happens, we remain concerned at the prospect of the big fish eating the little one - and this pi55ing contest is an expression of that real concern.
  8. Subsonic, just a little question for you re Joint Service EOD. The EOD for the Royal Navy is conducted by Clearance Divers, the RAFs' by Armourers and the RLCs' by Ammunition Technicians, all of the afore mentioned have a technical grounding in the make up and function of ammunition (be it sea mines, torpedoes, iron bombs, guided missiles, artillery rounds or whatever) and EOD is part of that training. RE BDOs come from many varied backgrounds (e.g. Plant Op, Welder, Brickie or as one CO of 33 insisted Wksp ASM or Masterchef!) who attend a course and get another qualification/badge and 3 years later get posted back to bridge building or whatever. My question is, a Joint Service EOD formation would it be manned by technically trained personnel or by people who just attend a relatively short course and then get posted away from EOD? :?
  9. Would a short course not suffice.

    I accept completely that technical issues of repair, maintenance and whatever other specific issues are concerned with ammunition and explosives require an expert mind, however for EOD - how much training would actually be needed.

    I can only speak on those matter I have witnessed but the ATO just seems to send his robot to a suspicious target, blow it up and pick up the bits.

    The BDO just blows things up.

    The RN ATO (excuse me if that is not the phrase) does the same as the ATO and BDO but underwater.

    As for the RAF......well..... what do they do?

    So surely a relatively short course for EOD purposes would be completely appropriate in a JS Theatre of Operations?
  10. Sammy, my dear chap. How unfortunate for you to fall at the first fence with a litany of elementary schoolboy errors.:wink:

    It is the long ammunition technical and scientific training that make ATs and ATOs suitable for EOD. All bombs, missiles, rockets, IEDs, pyrotechnics demolition explosives and the like are a form of ammunition. If you understand the principles of design and performance of explosive ordnance, you are very well placed to formulate a Render Safe Procedure (RSP). Another set of skills that ATs and ATOs are trained is technical and tactical risk analysis - the ability to assess risk from explosive ordnance and to investigate ammunition accidents is integral to the trade. These skills then lead into the skill of threat assessment - absolutely vital to IEDD and difficult to master. The JS IEDD course is only the 'base level' of this learning process. The RLC high threat courses that follow are much more difficult.

    The wheelbarrow disrupting an IED is only one part of an IEDD RSP that follows the threat assessment process. Each IEDD incident is different and can't be laid down, apart from the observance of certain mandatory actions, but even these can be dispensed with if the situation warrants it. To dispense with an action requires the operator to discuss it with someone equally or more qualified and senior to him and he needs a sound justification - again derived from first principles. RLC ATs and ATOs also conduct CMD ops and actually do around 68% of all MACP CMD tasks without the publicity of certain other arms.

    So, if an AT or ATO comes across something he hasn't seen before, be it an IED or CMD item, he can apply first principles in formulating his RSP. A short course in just 'EOD' does not give you the background to do this. 'Short course' EOD people have to follow set RSPs - and there is too much stuff out there for there to be set RSPs for everything and every situation. There were plenty of cases on Telic where 'short course' EOD teams fannied around for ages not knowing what they had or what to do, until they eventually tasked ATO support.

    Funnily enough, this was never publicly acknowledged by the 'short course' EOD teams. Simply wouldn't do to let it be known that one wasn't all that one said one was.
  11. I accept my post may have been an ovesimplification, however how long would it take in real terms to teach these principles.

    Surely one rocket must be more or less the same as any other - and if all that is required is field effected disposal how difficult would it be to teach the basics.

    ......its not rocket science (took me ages to think of that).
  12. Its not difficult to teach the basics, that's what they teach on the 'short courses' at DEODS. The problem with basics is that some people (not all admittedly) think that what they've been taught is all you need to know, or worse, all there is to know. Remember the old cliche about a little knowledge being dangerous? There is a world of difference between basics and a thorough understanding of principles. That takes the length of an AT or ATO course. If the courses could be shorter, they would be - we need a throughput of trained technicians.

    Some rockets are more or less the same as others, some not. An example: on Op Granby, a SCUD B variant (Al Abbas or Al Hussein IIRC)landed at Riyadh and failed to function. The warhead section was up against a mosque. There were French & US EOD teams ('short course') , plus lots of onlookers standing around it. They didn't have a clue how it worked and were attempting to apply an inappropriate aircraft bomb RSP to the missile. An RAOC EOD team arrived, led by a an AT WO2 (now a Capt). He effected an evacuation and formulated an RSP based on first principles and a little bit of prior research.

    Another example: ATs and RE BDOs jointly destroying guided missiles in Kosovo. The BDO had correctly placed his charges on the missile warhead, but was oblivious to the existence of thermal batteries and gyroscope run-up charges. These contain explosives and need to be destroyed as well.

    A friend of mine (an AT) who used to teach at DEODS used to say that in his lessons. Occasionally an expression of epiphany would creep across the face of one of the sappers and he would put his hand up and say "er, I think it is you know". Bless 'em.
  13. How spineless is that! Trying to spill the beans and get someone in trouble on a public forum. :evil:
    If it is true and you want something done about it, report it correctly.
    If not shut up, grow up and go to the QM's and sign out a backbone. :twisted:

    MOD can you delete this pricks post? :twisted:

    DIDCOT PARTIMER DELETED. Now they'll all be wondering what the heck it was about.
  14. Rowley, Rowley my old friend.

    As one of the last of the old breed of Loggies who insist that you can both pi55 further and pi55 further than any "wedgies" I only hope that you are not 'current, licenced' or indeed still serving. If you are you may have to get very used to serving with those poorly trained, dithering wedgies.
    I'm a little confused in your explanation that a AT is better equipped to carry out CMD tasks than a wedgie, having seen a perfectly capable and very experienced operator been reduced to a dribbling wreck by a air dropped- is that not CMD?? Everyone has their strengths and the RLC has them in great abundance but so they should as it is their trade and you have every right to be very proud, however to assume that all BDO's are some chippy or brickie dragged by his boot straps into the world of EOD is simply incorrect, as is the Master chef being sent on the course, utter tosh. The only people allowed on the short course are RE, RLC AT(O), RAF and RN clearence divers anyone else who says they were sent on the course is pulling your leg. As I have access to the details of everyman who has attended the short course you can PM his name so you can discredit him in complete confidence.
    The current way of thinking is that all BDO's will be Sgt's and EOD is now being streamed away from spec qual towards a genuine career path. The wedgies will still be brickies and chippies to allow us to carry out correct levels of protective works (remember that phrase) to harden structures and therfore prevent total damage to nearby infrastructure. In the same way that they apply thier principles to allow low order techniques and RSP's to be carried out to minimise damage.
    We may not know the chemical breakdown of EDGN or that ammunition should be stored this way or that, but until recently a AT(O) would not have understood the way a RPG's wave former works. Both cap badges have learnt and adjusted the way they do things since Telic, we as wedgies now have got a much better grasp of int gathering and passage of information, how to carry out logistical dems and the like.
    The future is RE & RLC and if between 0900-1700 the RAF working as a joint unit, and it is not a case of big fish scoffing little fish. Which Corps is better suited to picking up the purple EOD? Could you let the protective works asset go? Could you take the M&E&A storage out of the AT world? What about High Risk Search? I can't see you picking up much CMD outside of UK in the same way we won't pick up IEDD, one thing is for sure though, at current commitments there are not enough high threat operators. What say a bit of proper bridge building and letting a wedgie onto the course, or would it coin a phrase, "be the thin edge of the wedge!"
    I for one am very pro JFEOD and I'll whisper this, if we were rebadged from RE to whatever, so long as I was better equipped and given more relevent training rather than enough, just in time I would be happy.
    We all should continue to learn from mistakes, we all know of people who have messed up, but you also have to remeber that apart from the Falklands, we as operators did not have much genuine real experience of the Enemies weapon systems until the Balkans, and we learnt some very hard lessons during that time, in the same way as early IEDD did. But as time goes on we all get a bit better, apart from those who refuse to look forward.
  15. Subsonic said "The Sappers and Miners, on one hand, and the RAOC on the other, both hage a great heritage, but in these lean times, it must be time to move on to a new Joint Service world of EOD??"

    And Slippersapper admits to being "very pro JSEOD".

    It's all a long way off the thread, but it is hugely encouraging to see some constructive ideas that might actually lead somewhere; particularly so now that a new JSEOD branch appears to be on the verge of coalescing out of the primordial staff sludge that is HQ LAND.

    The AAC seem to have pulled various flying parts of other arms and services together quite well. They have a permanent core of flying bods and also take in part timers from elsewhere. Seems to me a JSEOD organisation could do the same, drawing on RE, RLC, RN and Crabs. That way, those who only want to be Bomb Gods and nothing else can have a halfway reasonable career, leaving the other - and perhaps the more rounded - individuals to come and go.

    And as a final fillip, I have discovered Sammy The Cat, who may or may not be some sort of relation.
    Now then, is Sammy short for Samantha...?