100 Royal Marines defeat 1500 conventional US troops in exercise


This might be an article of merit and worth bringing forth.
Three Armies trying to coordinate their actions to defeat a simulated adversary (Russia). This is a good thing.
 

Pteranadon

LE
Book Reviewer
Well from what I have gathered they seem to be the equivalent of our Rangers when it comes to training and selection etc. They were organized in a more conventional manner and seem to trying to do the whole 12 man detachments which has it's pros and cons. But will your RM keep the ability to actually conduct an opposed amphibious landing? It kinda seems like they are trying to emulate the SBS to an extent.
There is a reason for that....
Major General Lucian Truscott of the U.S. Army was a liaison officer with the British General Staff. In 1942 he submitted a proposal to General George Marshall that an American unit be set up "along the lines of the British Commandos”.
 

Pteranadon

LE
Book Reviewer
A similar thing happened on Exercise Reforger in 87.
One British armoured sqn and a Bundeswehr infantry company ruined the day for the 'Hell on Wheels' Armoured Div.
Great fun, excellent training but in the grand scheme of things nothing to get excited about.
Something similar happened on Ex Lionheart when the ex enemy - US Army pretending to be WP rolled through "Impenetrable" wooded ridges and over ran 4th Armoured Brigade before it could occupy its counter penetration position.

The exercise enemy is rarely handicapped by needing to follow full battle procedure. Some of this may be simply cheating, but also may highlight doctrinal weakness.

I was a witness to the Lion heart debacle as an FOO to the Irish Guards Battlegroup. We could follow the progress of the enemy and plotted the advancing mechanised enemy about 10 k away. It wasnot too difficult to work out that the place to block the B1 was on the obvious defile and positions could have been picked from the map.(*) Cue the decision for a deliberate deployment of an infantry battlegroup, R Group move to recce the battlegroup positions while concurrent actions take place within the battlegroup. A quick time and space calculation could have predicted the outcome. A good old fashioned cluster of landrovers with drivers making brews and the Battlegroup O group in a huddle in a field while the "enemy" Bradleys drove around this C & A party claiming to have killed them all.

There wasn't any set of tactical orders for a "hasty defensive deployment" or concept for fighting a meeting engagement. Does one exist now?


* For anyone who remembers Lionheart, after the engagement was umpired back to the pink, at least one of the Irish Guards Companies consolidated a position around layby on the B1. A motor home turned up and turned on a red light. The Micks discovered that the proprietor would servrve military customers , but only if they wore civilian clothes.... Their response was to award marks to exiting customers using compo box judges scoreboards 5.0, 4.8 5.5... Exit motor home shortly afterwards. Presence of Irish travelers considered bad for business.
 
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This might be an article of merit and worth bringing forth.
Three Armies trying to coordinate their actions to defeat a simulated adversary (Russia). This is a good thing.
You do know Putin /Soviet tactics?..... what a terrible waste of Russian lifes....all them years and he still has absolutely no f,king idea... definatly low grade KGB materiel.
 
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We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Where you see dangerous perceptions at high levels and some others see some kind of conspiracy to support further cuts, all I see is a puff piece which which the CDS has remarked upon.

One of us is right; I hope it's me.

A puff piece where it's claimed that the principles of war have been overturned.

I'd give more credibility to Carter if he'd claimed to have discovered the secret of alchemy.
 
Not playing by the enemies rules, and spanking them?

Lt Col (as he was then) Van Riper USMC says hi.
 
Goose green, 400 paras beat 1,500 dug in argies... using Russian maths of a 10:1 attack ratio... that would taken 15,000 Russians.... dig in the 400 Paras and too defeat them would take 15,000 x 10 (Attack ratio again) =150,000.

Military maths!
About half of those Argie 1,500 though were Air Force and took no part in the battle.
 
Yes and without trying to be an offensive Hillbilly from BFN...
Your Army will be used as an example of what to fund and what not to fund in our own budget wars.
When the end strength cuts come to our Army so the Navy can screw up their ship building program even more, the light infantry mafia is going to be told to eat a bag full of dicks. The 11 Active and 5 Guard ABCT's won't be cut. Infantry BCT's will take the hit and the National Guard will get to make up the slack if it comes down to it.
Steamers, after old Joe has inflicted defence cuts on your armed forces your army will be smaller than in 1914 and will have difficulty giving Mexico a good going over. Best you take some advice from us. He has got to pay for his 'New Deal' somehow. And with Kamilla standing on his balls as it is, think what is like when she becomes President soon.
 
Steamers, after old Joe has inflicted defence cuts on your armed forces your army will be smaller than in 1914 and will have difficulty giving Mexico a good going over. Best you take some advice from us. He has got to pay for his 'New Deal' somehow. And with Kamilla standing on his balls as it is, think what is like when she becomes President soon.
Biden can’t afford to go down that route and he knows it. The progressives can rant all they want about cuts, but to do so would political suicide. Defense cuts would have a nasty impact on employment and drag the economy down even further.
 

Guns

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
What people are missing is the USMC are using this as think piece to help them develop some plans they have. Sort of win win.

Having been privy to some of the exercise feedback the big thing was UAV at fire unit level is <Borat voice> Very nice </Borat voice> and has potential provided EW domain is friendly. That is a key for some more investment to make sure it can operate in jamming environment - LOS optical controls being one area.
 
Steamers, after old Joe has inflicted defence cuts on your armed forces your army will be smaller than in 1914 and will have difficulty giving Mexico a good going over. Best you take some advice from us. He has got to pay for his 'New Deal' somehow. And with Kamilla standing on his balls as it is, think what is like when she becomes President soon.
Biden can’t afford to go down that route and he knows it. The progressives can rant all they want about cuts, but to do so would political suicide. Defense cuts would have a nasty impact on employment and drag the economy down even further.
Well this kinda blows up both your statements..... amazing what a little bit of unbiased research can find.

Biden Wants to Spend Even More on Defense than One Term Trump​

The president’s plan to hike Pentagon spending draws a rebuke from progressives.

 
Well this kinda blows up both your statements..... amazing what a little bit of unbiased research can find.

Biden Wants to Spend Even More on Defense than One Term Trump​

The president’s plan to hike Pentagon spending draws a rebuke from progressives.

So he is going to hike Pentagon spending plus trillions of dollars on his new deal and pay for it by borrowing even more money from China and importing more. Old Joe has obviously gone to the Bobby Mugabe school of economics. Anyway he wont last even one term before the progressive Kamilla takes over.
 
So he is going to hike Pentagon spending plus trillions of dollars on his new deal and pay for it by borrowing even more money from China and importing more. Old Joe has obviously gone to the Bobby Mugabe school of economics. Anyway he wont last even one term before the progressive Kamilla takes over.
I don't really care tbh I can watch U.S politics implode from the comfort of my armchair north of the border. I just enjoy reading Steamy's meltdown over Sleepy Joe's policies' especially when his (Steamy) views are very often proved wrong.
 
What people are missing is the USMC are using this as think piece to help them develop some plans they have. Sort of win win.
Sort of what I was driving at upthread. The Lt commanding the OPFOR was quite clearly unconcerned about the fact that his OPFOR causing havoc might be embarrasing to the Corps. His job was to expose weaknesses in the organisation before someone else did in less favourable circumstances. In this case RM have substituted for USMC as far as I can see.
 
Swing the lantern, pull up a sandbag... there is a historical precedent.

In '89 EX CALTROP FORCE was held in California with Aussies, Canucks Kiwis, Yanks and Brits all playing. The British component was 1PARA BG with a troop of 7 RHA and another of 9 Sqn RE attached. The Ex was a multinational expeditionary effort with Paras dropping in to secure air head and act as a defending screen whilst heavier units flew in / assaulted from the sea. The game plan of the Ex was for the Paras to lob in, defend the hills to the east of the airhead (where I as an attached craphat was nominally landing - in a Truckules of course) and fall back under heavy contact from the enemy Orange force (a US armoured Bde IIRC), holding the line for 48 hours until the Blue force (US Marines, US light Infantry Regt, a composite ANZAC Bn and the good old PPCLI) came to our rescue,and then a 2 week choreographed barney would ensue. Everybody was equipped with MILES kit (just like Heartbreak Ridge ;) ) provided by the Yanks, including TOW launchers and Stinger AAMs, plus kit for all our own weapon systems up to and including 105 Light guns - really impressive stuff, and cutting edge for the late 80s.

Come the great day, 1 PARA duly lobs in, and scuttles off to the east with the whole toyshop on their backs, to set up the defensive line. About 12 hours in I "land" at the airhead in my Truckules, and transfer to a 1 Ton Landy (yes it was that long ago). We head east in convoy packets and start to set up A2 echelon, when we're all told to STOP!

Apparently the forward screen of Paras hadn't read the script, decided attack was the best form of defence and had proceeded to kill every element of Orange forces, especially their armour using the MILES TOWs and then mortaring the crap out of supporting infantry. To cut a long story short, EXCON had to stop the EX as there wasn't any effective enemy left after the first 24 hours - an airborne battlegroup had wiped out an armoured brigade. So we had a 24 hour non-tac hold in place, whilst the Orange Yanks sorted their shit out, and got re-lifed (and presumably got a new Bde commander, the US Army being somewhat more ruthless about failure than us), and 1 PARA was told to play nicely now and not kill everyone just because they could - it wasn't fair on the other mobs who'd come all this way to play soldiers.

The rejigged exercise was good fun (it was California in the spring, and it didn't rain once that I remember) - even 1PARA QM Dept took prisoners (a very lost platoon of yanks who were introduced to the joys of sandbags, stress positions and zip ties - we didn't know it was against the rules back then) and shot down a Blackhawk! On the parade at the ENDEX some Yank General was full of praise for the Paras "fighting spirit" and "can do attitood",making a very big deal of the need to reset the Ex because they were just too damned effective.

Edit to get my eastings all in the same direction
Got news for you @ NTC the visiting Bde is EXPECTED to lose against the OPFOR, they've never relieved a bde cdr for losing there.
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
Got news for you @ NTC the visiting Bde is EXPECTED to lose against the OPFOR, they've never relieved a bde cdr for losing there.
The ex was held at Fort Hunter Liggett, not Irwin, and we were barracked at Fort Ord. Quite possible the opfor commander wasn't sacked, purely supposition on my part but the ex was halted for 24 hours because the Paras had "killed" them all, which wasn't in the ex plan.
 
The ex was held at Fort Hunter Liggett, not Irwin, and we were barracked at Fort Ord. Quite possible the opfor commander wasn't sacked, purely supposition on my part but the ex was halted for 24 hours because the Paras had "killed" them all, which wasn't in the ex plan.

Is there any milage in an "Excercises I (or my mob) put a spanner in..." thread? I'm thinking of an occasion where BUOTC contributed to a timetable slipping. Were you at that camp @CaptainPlume?
 
About half of those Argie 1,500 though were Air Force and took no part in the battle.
Nice, shame the Paras were not informed before hand.... unlike their imminent arrival via the BBC.
 
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