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1.9m on benefit should go back to work

#1
Well, what a difference the Gobmint finally waking up to the stark fact they are skint and not having a self serving cowardly gobshite in charge makes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...VCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2008/02/02/nbenefit102.xml

Gordon Brown fought against this before he became PM because he was afraid it would ruin his chances and create a toxic legacy.

Alistair Darling is not playing the Broonite toerag any more and has made it clear he will not carry the can for ten years of failure, so hard action is required now.

And the last obstacle, Peter Hain who had been "worried about the Left" and so did SFA, is gone.

I see opportunities if there are to be companies springing up to "motivate" people who are really capable of work but bone idle. He is right that if you put it in pure fiscal reward terms, why would anybody waste resources trying to force a person clearly incapable of holding down a job for three years into work? A Government might because it gives them numbers to play with and crow about but not a private company because that is dumb.

However since the Gobmint will be unable to stop interfering always a danger that the very thing Mr Freud see as a danger will come into play:

"He wants a combination of carrots and sticks to persuade people to take jobs. "You have to slice the benefits [if people won't work] but if you're not spending the money to provide the services, the stick is just a vengeful and useless way of beating people."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...VCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2008/02/02/nbenefit202.xml
 
#2
Get 'em all back to work. No more "unemployed", more "state employed". There is a lot of graffitee to remove, litter to collect and roads to sweep. 6 hours a day working on a works party, you get your dole. If that is beyond your grasp... no money.

Those who can't do manual labour can do other things.
 
#4
My absolute favourite hobby horse. Mainly because it winds so many people up.

First, a little 'numbers' game...

No. of people who gubmint wants to go back to work = 1.9m
No. of vacancies on file with T&EA UK wide (approx.) = 600,000.

Errr.

Anyway.

Work for benefits.... Aside from the fact that it's plain illegal*, it costs more to administer and action than it does to just pay dole. The Govt. are aware of this, but don't like saying so... Simply because there really isn't any solution to the 'benefit culture' which has been created in the UK over the past three generations, no short term one anyway. It's the price that you have to pay for having a universal welfare system, there will always be skivers and no matter what requirements you put in place... They will meet them. After all, it's their only 'occupation'.

Past Govts. Have been content to allow malingerers and borderline cases to stay on incapacity because it keeps the unemployment figure artifically low. It seems the current mob have espied a method of cutting costs a tad.


I predict that a new benefit will appear, effectively a lower rate of incapacity benefit , for those adjudged 'capable' of some form of work. They still wont be unemployed but they'll get the same cheque as someone who is... About £55 a week for a single, childless person (amongst the lowest in Europe, incidently).




* There's a requirement to pay minimum wage, unless the 'candidate' can be said to be 'in training' there's a maximum period of (I think) 11 months and attendance at a formal institute of education is mandatory. That's why those on New Deal end up with NVQs in floor mopping. Which, perhaps ironically, if somewhat predictably can (in some cases) actually be seen as negative issues in the search for 'real' work. My current employer warns those in HR not to bin CVs which mention time on training schemes, as it's a discrimination issue. But it's apparently common practice.
 
#5
Biscuits_Brown said:
About £55 a week for a single, childless person (amongst the lowest in Europe, incidently).
But not quite as low as Romania - a country that could teach Gordon a thing or two.

Jobless Romanians are to be given goats instead of welfare benefits as part of a scheme to make them contribute more to the economy.

Under the pilot project, welfare benefits are to be axed from September in the Independenta district, a collection of villages in south-eastern Romania, where unemployed families will instead each receive 10 goats.

They will be expected to sell milk and cheese to earn an income, and when they find work, they will have to return the goats to the council.
Vast herds of municipal goats are the key to welfare reform IMHO (are you awake yet Sven - have you got a big garden?).

The National Audit Office published a report about a year ago stating that one third of British households get most or all of their income from benefits. Even a rich country like Britain can't afford that. If we don't get people out of the benefits lifestyle nurtured by Labour and Tories alike, the welfare bill will bankrupt our economy.

The solutions being proposed are too complex and too susceptible to fraud to work. Welfare dependence is too deeply ingrained. We'll need to do something drastic like stopping benefits after 5 years or dishing out food stamps instead of benefits, as happens in America.

Either that or we could reintroduce slavery.
 
#6
Two pointers spring to mind 1)Overall the state educational system is incapable of turning out much beyond dross and deadweights 2) There are virtually no big industries that can take thousands of completely useless people in the UK anymore. No coal mines, steel mills or ship yards where the useless do learn that being stupid will get them killed.

So, we're kinda stuck with at least 3 generations of the bone idle, work shy and useless........
 
#7
Aye, well you've actually summed it up better than I could.

There's no real, workable solution and the cheapest option by far is to pay out a small-ish amount to anyone who's prepared to jump through all the hoops.

It makes Daily Mail columnists furious. Which is one of the few upsides.
 
#8
Ancient_Mariner said:
Biscuits_Brown said:
About £55 a week for a single, childless person (amongst the lowest in Europe, incidently).
But not quite as low as Romania - a country that could teach Gordon a thing or two.

Jobless Romanians are to be given goats instead of welfare benefits as part of a scheme to make them contribute more to the economy.

Under the pilot project, welfare benefits are to be axed from September in the Independenta district, a collection of villages in south-eastern Romania, where unemployed families will instead each receive 10 goats.

They will be expected to sell milk and cheese to earn an income, and when they find work, they will have to return the goats to the council.
Vast herds of municipal goats are the key to welfare reform IMHO (are you awake yet Sven - have you got a big garden?).

The National Audit Office published a report about a year ago stating that one third of British households get most or all of their income from benefits. Even a rich country like Britain can't afford that. If we don't get people out of the benefits lifestyle nurtured by Labour and Tories alike, the welfare bill will bankrupt our economy.

The solutions being proposed are too complex and too susceptible to fraud to work. Welfare dependence is too deeply ingrained. We'll need to do something drastic like stopping benefits after 5 years or dishing out food stamps instead of benefits, as happens in America.

Either that or we could reintroduce slavery.
That'd be a breach of their human rights, innit mate?
 
#9
Many condemn the Poles etc coming here and taking jobs. They never took any jobs that were always available to anyone from UK who wanted to work. The trouble is a few ppl I know have been unemployed and on sickness benefit of around £150 p.w Their rent is paid, another £60 - £65 and they get their Council tax paid too. All that for sitting at home watching Sky TV. I work 60 hours a week and sometimes wonder if I am any better off. We have an influx of outsiders here because they want to work. Benefit here is supposedly a hand up not a handout - now many ppl see it as the next step from leaving school. I think if someone is not going into further education or work when they leave school then they should be conscripted into a labour Corps. They could then do non combat role jobs. This may teach them discipline and self respect. Also after being paid a decent wage for a decent days work they will not want to move down the ladder to be on £59 p.w.
 
#10
Yet why are so many ex servicemen being totally let down by the NHS, when with the right care and treatment, they could be found gainful employment.
That's right, they don't have any targets for those who have served Queen and Country, as for the so-called priority treatments for those on War Pensions, what a load of SH1TE!
As many ex servicemen don't cue up every week to see their GP and just get on with their lives in pain, when they do see their GP, they are not taken seriously and treated in a manner that will help them back to work.
Many ex servicemen have many talents, many which allot of civvi companies would do well with, but are let down when with long term health problems the NHS either see them as low priority, or don't have a damn clue on what would help, both the individual and their family!
 
#11
Its nice to see that those backwards Romanians are better at addressing the problem of the unemployed than the mighty Brits. I say get the lazy benefit scumbags out collecting and selling recycling - everyone's a winner!


By the way, Gordon, if you or any of your clueless minions are logged on and reading this, its my idea and I want my cut when you put this scheme into action 8)
 
#12
Taffnp said:
M Also after being paid a decent wage for a decent days work they will not want to move down the ladder to be on £59 p.w.
Rather than top it up with drug dealing, you mean?

msr
 
#13
Biscuits_Brown said:
. My current employer warns those in HR not to bin CVs which mention time on training schemes, as it's a discrimination issue. But it's apparently common practice.
Thats daft, one of the best members of staff I ever had came from a training scheme.
 
#14
Also after being paid a decent wage for a decent days work they will not want to move down the ladder to be on £59 p.w.
No, but at the moment all govt (and hence you) have to find is the £59. Put them into a 'makejob' and you've got to make that £200-ish. Plus the wages for the managers and administrators of whatever agency actually 'handles' the work. You'll get a shoddy job done by people who don't want to be there and will ultimately starve the private sector economy by making it impossible for them to compete.
 
#16
There are a lot of nasty lazy chavs out there claiming invalidity benefit they are definatly not entitled to,but I get the feeling reading the post by
Iowa above that the nastier elements in the Tory party are going to use the abolishment of this benefit for all claimants as a way to gain power at the next election.

The sort of merchant bankers like David Freud advising politicians,but have probably never done a day's proper work in their lives and have come from affluent backgrounds and never wanted for anything.
 
#17
SeanGoesPop said:
That'd be a breach of their human rights, innit mate?
Now : Yes
After day one of the next Tory government : No

If the Tories win the next election I can see the following happening:-

1) David 'Don't call me Dave' Davis pops down to B&Q and buys a small hacksaw.

2) David 'Do call me Dave' Cameron is tragically felled as the windmill on top of his house keels over and kills him.

3) Britain's greatest-ever Prime Minister is recalled to the colours. She promises big changes during her first speech on the steps of No. 10.

4) Government funded enterprises are immediately established in all major towns to provide welfare benefits and to assist the unemployed back into work. These enterprises are known as work houses.

5) Following a massive, government funded research programme on the scale of the Manhattan Project, it becomes possible to bring the dead back to life. The first corpse to benefit from this treatment is Ronald Regan.

6) Reborn Ronnie is promptly installed as Home Secretary following the tragic death of David Davis in Britain's first fatal case of rabies since the 1930s.

7) Ronnie arms the ticket inspectors on Eurostar in order to counter the imminent threat of hordes of rabid asylum-seekers overwhelming Britain.

8) Following the tragic death of the Justice Minister at the hands of a deranged axe murderer on early release from prison, a vacancy arises in the cabinet.

9) A new Justice Minister is appointed. He is none other than Joe Arpaio. Once America's toughest Sheriff, he is now Britain's toughest cabinet minister. Manufacturers of tents and pink underwear see their share prices go through the roof.

10) The newly retired Vladimir Putin is offered the post of Minister for Sport following the tragic death of the incumbent who is crushed while visiting a gym in Liverpool due to the weight on his bench press machine being set in tons instead of pounds.

11) Gladiatorial combat, chariot racing, 'moving target' shooting and fox hunting become Olympic sports.

12) Following the tragic death of the PM in unknown circumstances, Putin becomes Premier. During her lying-in-state at Westminster Abbey, the former PM's body is observed to be glowing faintly.

13) Following the tragic death of the Queen in a grouse shooting accident, Putin assumes the dual role of Prime Minister and Head of State. It is announced that, henceforth, the holder of this new post is to be known as 'Emperor'.

14) There is no lying in state for the former monarch as it's feared that some of the armour piercing ammunition still lodged in her bullet riddled corpse may not have exploded on contact. Instead of a State Funeral, her remains are made safe in a ceremonial, controlled explosion carried out by the Royal Logistics Corps' head of EOD outside Westminster Abbey.

15) Emperor Putin announces that the United Kingdom is to be rebranded. It will be known as the United States of Sovereign Regions.

16) After uttering the phrase 'evil empire', Ronald Regan is never seen or heard of again. Newly retired Robert Mugabe is sprung from jail in the Hague by the SAS (now known as SPEcialisT Squad for the NAtional security Zone or 'Spetsnaz' for short). Mugabe becomes the new Home Secretary soon after being granted asylum in the UK.

17) Following the most successful Olympic Games in living memory, gladiatorial combat replaces football as the national sport. As more and more football stadia are converted, David Beckham bows to the inevitable and retrains as a plumber - shortly before he and Posh are killed before a baying crowd during the inaugural combat at Old Trafford Arena of Death.

18) The popularity of mortal combat in the arenas solves many of the nation's problems. Unemployment, prison overcrowding, Ken Livingstone and queues at the Post Office all become bad memories as Putin is elected Emperor for Life and a new golden age dawns.
 
#18
All it will take is for one person on incapacity benefits, who is found fit for work, to sue the private company doctor who carried out the examination.

No doubt the company will defend that they provide the DSS a report and it is a clerk (a public sector parasite) who took the decision. But it will only take one judgement and the plan will be in tatters.

What needs to be done is to abolish the postwar benefits system entirely.

It is farcical that we have two systems. Contributory and Means tested.

Means tested claims only have a central record if there is a contributory element in the claim. This is the loophole exploited by IRA to run multiple address frauds against a system which has no inbvuilt means to detect them. One we caught (48 addresses in modern day terms taking half a million a year) was only caught by fortuitous information received.

It is a public sector parasite paradise. Employing the otherwise useless.

In the local authority you have rent allowances and council tax benefits, in the benefits dept you have means tested and a variety of contribnutory benefits and for part time or low paid work you have tax credit.

We need to sack the civil and public servants (without compensation) and replace the whole shambles with a reversible tax system. One. govt bank.

There would be no distinction between causes of economic inactivity. No advantage to being classified disabled.

In work the bank would determine your tax position. In low paid or part time work your tax credit position. And in economic inactivity your full tax credit position.

Then there would be no need for a national id card scheme.

The black economy would find it difficult to function.

And happily lots of semi skilled public sector parasites could be introduced to the real world.


Just out of interest I had a bit of a lookie at my oldest daughter's neighbourhood.

Neighbour has motability car and his wife draws benefit as a separated wife from an address down the road.

man opposite has been on the sick for years but can work with a chansaw with his brother in law.

man round the corner has been drawing incapacity for ten years, has care and mobility higher rate disability living allowance. He claims from his house (believed bought from council just before he went sick on the right to buy scheme). Actually he lives with the mother of his children who works part time from her right to buy council house from which she clams child care and tax credit and mortgage interest payments. between them they net about 600 pounds per week.

The other side of my daughter it is the daughter and her boyfriend living there whilst the mother draws benefits, council tax and rent allowance from that address. The mother (official tenant) actually lives in and works cash in hand as a barmaid at a pub. The boyfriend claims from another address.

This is just a snapshot looking at houses within spitting distance of one address.

And it is not as if it is rocket science to catch them if you wanted to. Guy in motability car in ropad rage incident after dropping his kids at school.

man in his own laden lorry in road accident, listed in Thompsons as a trader, been on sick for years.

Catching benefits cheats should be like shooting rats in a barrel.
 
#19
knockknee said:
Just out of interest I had a bit of a lookie at my oldest daughter's neighbourhood.

Neighbour has motability car and his wife draws benefit as a separated wife from an address down the road.

man opposite has been on the sick for years but can work with a chansaw with his brother in law.

man round the corner has been drawing incapacity for ten years, has care and mobility higher rate disability living allowance. He claims from his house (believed bought from council just before he went sick on the right to buy scheme). Actually he lives with the mother of his children who works part time from her right to buy council house from which she clams child care and tax credit and mortgage interest payments. between them they net about 600 pounds per week.

The other side of my daughter it is the daughter and her boyfriend living there whilst the mother draws benefits, council tax and rent allowance from that address. The mother (official tenant) actually lives in and works cash in hand as a barmaid at a pub. The boyfriend claims from another address.

This is just a snapshot looking at houses within spitting distance of one address.

And it is not as if it is rocket science to catch them if you wanted to. Guy in motability car in ropad rage incident after dropping his kids at school.

man in his own laden lorry in road accident, listed in Thompsons as a trader, been on sick for years.

Catching benefits cheats should be like shooting rats in a barrel.
I trust you have made the necessary tip offs.
msr
 
#20
If people are genuinely disabled they should be given all the help they can to lead normal lives. Ironically, the truly disabled are the most likely to want to find gainful employment. The skivers are quite happy to draw the almost double benefit rather than job seekers allowance.
Of those claiming the benefit, almost half are doing so for "stress". 2,000 people claiming it were classed as "too fat to work" and 50 people claimed acne was the reason for claiming.
Once on this benefit, 70% are unlikely to come off it for 5 years or more.
Went to our local pub one night and overheard (they were loud) a bunch of young dropouts complaining about the "small" amount of benefits they were getting whilst downing quite a few pints and nipping out every now and again for a ciggy, brought home the fact that many of our "yoof of today" look on claiming benefits as a lifestyle choice.
It may cost more to administer a clamp down on the scroungers in the first place, but surely in the long run it would be well worth it? If only to change the mind set of those who see it as their right to be kept in the lifestyle they have been accustomed to by the long-suffering taxpayer.
 

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