£20 Billion for the NHS

#41
Can someone please explain the point of fining a hospital, surely you are just taking funds from the patients to pay the fine?
 

Joker62

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#42
Can someone please explain the point of fining a hospital, surely you are just taking funds from the patients to pay the fine?
I think that the reasoning behind it is that if they can't fund stuff due to being fined, they'll soon buck up and start doing the stuff that doesn't lead to being fined and leaves them cash to do the stuff that they need to do. I could be wrong though and they might just put their hand out for more money!
 
#43
And perhaps redefine elective surgery?
Elective isn't all bad
Therin lies the problem

I opted to have an operation to realign my finger** - That's elective
But in doing so I was better able to form a grip and otherwise use my hand. - So it had clear benefits to quality of life and ability to work beyond its appearance.

Trouble is when you support the quality of life elective - it becomes open to abuse - I absolutely must be a 34D because as a 34B Im to ashamed to go outside in public etc. My mental health is suffering type cases.

On the opposite end - My mates sister who is a 3X GG or HH ( Fookin mahoosive ) cannot get surgery on the NHS for a reduction - despite the problems they cause her

** I was standing several feet from my glove but technically was still touching it - The subsequent reattaching of the mangled digit - crunched bone and extensive use of bits from its neighbour to form a graft resulted in a very oddly positioned digit - moreover as it had (has) no movement (still doesn't) its position meant I couldn't wear gloves or place my hand in a small space. My elective surgery was in some ways a life saver ( if only the ability to put gloves on in winter)
 
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#44
#45
NHS high costs? AFAIK it was medicines, cleaning, cataract surgery, consultants and qualified nurses. Managers and senior managers etc. Add to that, wastage, drug companies, litigation and compensation, on top of increasing pressures, bureaucracy and tendering. And all the "private and corporate leeches". Hospital overspends are probably twice the estimates of £1bn - £2bn.

If elderly people have worked and paid all their life and access their free health care, while life expectancies (average 80 yrs) are increasing, they'll rightly stick two fingers up to the ageists.

For 'health tourism' there are rules for the National Health Service; if there wasn't a problem there wouldn't have been new legislation but there is still chronic underfunding in health and social care. Health Minister Lord O'Shaughnessy was widely reported as saying (reasonably) :
“The NHS is a cherished national institution that is paid for by British taxpayers. “We have no problem with overseas visitors using our NHS as long as they make a fair financial contribution, just as the British taxpayer does. The new regulations simply require NHS bodies to make enquiries about, and then charge those who aren't entitled to free NHS care.

All the money raised goes back into funding and improving care for NHS patients. “We are clear that some vulnerable groups such as asylum seekers are exempt from charging and the NHS will never withhold urgent and immediately necessary treatment.”
 

Joker62

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#46
#47
The immediate treatment may well be, but if young M'Bongo gets a 3 week stay on a ward, surely that is chargeable?
If M’Bongo is a visitor and continues a course of treatment then they would become liable to pay, and should be informed of that. It’s all in the links

If however M’Bongo is properly resident in the UK and meets the right criteria then it’s still free

Likewise, as per a recent thread on here, if Joe Bloggs emigrates elsewhere but comes back for free NHS treatment because they haven’t sorted out their admin overseas where they are resident then they are ripping off the system
 
#48
If M’Bongo is a visitor and continues a course of treatment then they would become liable to pay, and should be informed of that. It’s all in the links

If however M’Bongo is properly resident in the UK and meets the right criteria then it’s still free

Likewise, as per a recent thread on here, if Joe Bloggs emigrates elsewhere but comes back for free NHS treatment because they haven’t sorted out their admin overseas where they are resident then they are ripping off the system

I get the feeling that the figures for non-entitled are being fudged somewhat. I suspect that the only ones who are accounted for are the limited number who show a foreign passport and actually admit to being foreign. I expect, however, that very large numbers of foreign visitors and illegal residents are able to easily bluff the system, and thus are not reported to government.
 
#51
So something like the Immigration Health Surcharge (that's been around since 2015)then?
Pay for UK healthcare as part of your immigration application

Works nicely.

If you are living in Nigeria, but need a heart bypass operation, all you have to do is come to UK and make an immigration application. Your NHS surcharge is £150-200 per annum. For that you get full access to whatever major treatment you need - maybe that heart bypass, etc. Oh, yes, you might have to pay your prescription charge, but not a bad deal overall.... except for the UK taxpayer, of course.
 
#52
I get the feeling that the figures for non-entitled are being fudged somewhat. I suspect that the only ones who are accounted for are the limited number who show a foreign passport and actually admit to being foreign. I expect, however, that very large numbers of foreign visitors and illegal residents are able to easily bluff the system, and thus are not reported to government.
The Government of 2013 were well aware of it.
"The Government says health tourism costs the NHS as much as £80 million a year — enough to pay for about 2,000 nurses".
The 300 'maternity tourists'
 
#54
So the NHS is going to get £20billion in extra funding which is a brilliant thing, however how many of the senior NHS "Administrators" will see this as an excuse to ramp their pay up and deny front line services needed funds. Call me a sceptical old bastard, but the NHS pisses so much money away and pays stupid wages to people who lets be frank could organise an alcohol binge in a brewery.
It a sound bite, nothing more. With £52 Billion required for HS2, do you really think that any money "Saved" from the EU will benefit Joe public. There might be a small input of cash, but nothing like the amounts quoted. Anything to calm the troubled masses, and further bolster Mrs May efforts to drag this Country back into self determination.
 
#56
Works nicely.

If you are living in Nigeria, but need a heart bypass operation, all you have to do is come to UK and make an immigration application. Your NHS surcharge is £150-200 per annum. For that you get full access to whatever major treatment you need - maybe that heart bypass, etc. Oh, yes, you might have to pay your prescription charge, but not a bad deal overall.... except for the UK taxpayer, of course.
If the immigrant doesn’t have a job and lives off the state then they have paid £150-£200 more per annum then the rest of the welfare state
If they have a job then they pay £150-£200 more than the rest of taxpayers
 
#57
If the immigrant doesn’t have a job and lives off the state then they have paid £150-£200 more per annum then the rest of the welfare state
If they have a job then they pay £150-£200 more than the rest of taxpayers

I think you missed the point.
 
#59
10 billion to be raised from taxes, but it seems it will be middle earners that will get walloped again, the EU "dividend" will not happen...that is pie in the sky the most we can hope for is walking away break even. However not to turn it into a Brexit debate but how can the NHS use the money wisely, and not paying NHS bosses more is one way, making sure that ambulances are better utilised, education on when it is appropriate to attend A&E and better use of GP's are some ways it could be spent more wisely.

But you can almost guarantee that it will be spent on Focus groups, off setting costs of Medical Tourism etc etc.
Possibly by not paying £'s for stuff that costs pence, Paracetamol for instance and stop giving stuff free on prescription that cost pence in the pharmacy too.
 
#60
If elderly people have worked and paid all their life and access their free health care, while life expectancies (average 80 yrs) are increasing, they'll rightly stick two fingers up to the ageists.
Not exactly sure that "rightly" is the word. Here's a case in point - mother-in-law, worked in a shop and paid into the system for probably 15 years or less. Then stopped work to have and look after two children, able to do so because F-i-L had sufficiently good job that it could be done. Never, ever claimed benefits during that time.

Fast-forward forty years or so. She's got chronic arthritis, has had both knees replaced three times, had her fingers chopped up and realigned and is on a cocktail of pain medication and has been for the last ten years. F-i-L is also now in failing health and both have been in and out of hospitals several times in the last decade.

That sort of provision was never allowed for in the original assumptions constructing the NHS and is certainly not covered by "paying your stamp", which is a common refrain. So, is it "right" that one elderly lady soaks up that level of resource? I honestly don't know - I do know that between our family and my brother-in-laws, we could probably cover it privately, but not easily. That also assumes that the in-laws would agree - as far as they see it, it's their "right" under the NHS and there's no telling them otherwise. Anything else is "evil Tory privatisation" or some-such Grauniadista nonsense.

That's people who have looked after themselves relatively well, by the way, not examples of the gargantuan tubsters you see wheezing around the streets today. Can you imagine what they'll cost - assuming they don't cark it young?

That's the issue. There is no amount of funding that can possibly cover unconstrained demand - a demand that is only marginally due to Johnny F and largely down to our own ever-ageing populace. How do you fairly ration treatment? If you can't, how do you fund it? It cannot possibly be via the existing model of bunging dollops of cash at it.
 

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