£20 Billion for the NHS

#21
The graph above would seem to fit what happens. Traditionally Labour Governments spend what Conservative governments have managed to save.

Then leave a note for the next Government that reads along the lines of, “Sorry no money in the kitty."
 
#22
The graph above would seem to fit what happens. Traditionally Labour Governments spend what Conservative governments have managed to save
There's certainly a seesaw look to it.

Still the best part of a decade later with a continuingly aging population, the service probably needs the funds.
 
#23
The NHS is in need of fundamental reform. Unfortunately we don't have any politician with the brass balls to stand up and say this because they are so afraid of the flack they will get.

Appreciate that anecdote isn't evidence, but my wife used to work for the NHS and she had 2 team leaders and 4 assistant team leaders, none of whom were needed as they knew exactly what to do and split the workload across the team themselves.
The NHS does not need reform, the government polices surround it do. Stop unreasonable parking fees at hospitals, migrants must have private health insurance upon entering the country, no free healthcare until you have paid in to the system for 5 years and so on.

These things are all done my many other EU countries, there is no good reason why we are not doing it.
 
#24
The NHS does not need reform, the government polices surround it do. Stop unreasonable parking fees at hospitals, migrants must have private health insurance upon entering the country, no free healthcare until you have paid in to the system for 5 years and so on.

These things are all done my many other EU countries, there is no good reason why we are not doing it.
You can't seriously tell me that it's run in an efficient manner?
 
#25
So the NHS is going to get £20billion in extra funding which is a brilliant thing, however how many of the senior NHS "Administrators" will see this as an excuse to ramp their pay up and deny front line services needed funds. Call me a sceptical old bastard, but the NHS pisses so much money away and pays stupid wages to people who lets be frank could organise an alcohol binge in a brewery.
No point in me trying to add to this tbh.
You pretty much said exactly what I was thinking.
 
#26
10 billion to be raised from taxes, but it seems it will be middle earners that will get walloped again, the EU "dividend" will not happen...that is pie in the sky the most we can hope for is walking away break even. However not to turn it into a Brexit debate but how can the NHS use the money wisely, and not paying NHS bosses more is one way, making sure that ambulances are better utilised, education on when it is appropriate to attend A&E and better use of GP's are some ways it could be spent more wisely.

But you can almost guarantee that it will be spent on Focus groups, off setting costs of Medical Tourism etc etc.
It doesn’t matter whethere you have the most effective management in the world. Spending will increase to exceed budget.

Tourism and tit jobs for the feckless are a smokescreen. The biggest cost is crinklies and their departing this world.
 
#27
Still the best part of a decade later with a continuingly aging population, the service probably needs the funds.
That I certainly agree is the case. More people are living longer, with the age related problems that comes with that.

I have unfortunately been an NHS customer recently and seen at fairly close hand some of the problems of high patient loads on a very heavily worked system.

The NHS is a pretty amazing system that gives an amazing service, and need all the funds it can get. I do however see a lot of waste, advantage taken by health tourism, waste, and high costs charged to them for goods and medications that seem like profiteering by the companies that supply the NHS
 
#28
It doesn’t matter whethere you have the most effective management in the world. Spending will increase to exceed budget.

Tourism and tit jobs for the feckless are a smokescreen. The biggest cost is crinklies and their departing this world.
It's been posted on the NHS crisis thread somewhere, but foreigners are usually younger working age and paying into the system when living here. Something like 0.5% of the budget gets spent on them.

It's definitely the older people who are the biggest burden. Not a criticism of old people, just the way it is.

I'll try dig up the figures
 

Joker62

ADC
Book Reviewer
#30
It's been posted on the NHS crisis thread somewhere, but foreigners are usually younger working age and paying into the system when living here. Something like 0.5% of the budget gets spent on them.

It's definitely the older people who are the biggest burden. Not a criticism of old people, just the way it is.

I'll try dig up the figures
These would be the older people who have paid into this for the majority of their lives, the same old people that also have paid into a Govt pension scheme at the same time but have managed to see Govt use the pension pot like a piggy bank, leaving shortages so people have to work until a later age. At the moment, I will have to work until I'm 67 to be able to get a "full" pension, as you're younger than me, I'd hate to see what age you'd have to work to.
Successive Govts have just given and given the NHS more and more money, yet it never seems enough, as @franktwinkletoes said, start with charging non UK users for their treatment, get rid of the many levels of managers (how many managers does it take to run a hospital?), bin local focus groups, make them regional, cut down on staff leaving by using the money saved from managers to pay staff properly.
 
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#31
These would be the older people who have paid into this for the majority of their lives, the same old people that also have paid into a Govt pension scheme at the same time but have managed to see Govt use the pension pot like a piggy bank, leaving shortages so people have to work until a later age. At the moment, I will have to work until I'm 67 to be able to get a "full" pension, as you're younger than me, I'd hate to see what age you'd have to work to.
Simply pointing out where the money is spent...
 
#32
That I certainly agree is the case. More people are living longer, with the age related problems that comes with that.

I have unfortunately been an NHS customer recently and seen at fairly close hand some of the problems of high patient loads on a very heavily worked system.

The NHS is a pretty amazing system that gives an amazing service, and need all the funds it can get. I do however see a lot of waste, advantage taken by health tourism, waste, and high costs charged to them for goods and medications that seem like profiteering by the companies that supply the NHS
The ageing population is unavoidable - but in hand with better survival rates it's exactly what a health service is there for. Healthcare spending is allocated according to clinical priorities.

Fortunately we're not like Germany in the 1930's, unfortunately for some ageist fools. In fact in England the number of older people getting help, seems to have fallen by a quarter (BBC). More money is spent on front-line healthcare than social care.; more elder care is self-funded, or funded by family and friends, than by local councils.

We're not the only health system in the world struggling with longer life expectancies either, nor health inflation above the cost of living, nor rocketing drugs costs and profiteering. The NHS budget across the UK just hasn't kept pace; we've had to make do with excellent NHS staff, treatment and care in "a dire financial situation encompassing the entire NHS provider sector in England". However there seem to be core problems which money just won't fix.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#33
Call me a daft lad but that is a shitload of cash and the response seems to be "well yes but we need a lot more". I know that the NHS is a bit under pressure but it cannot be that bad can it?

Nice to see the requirement for the NHS to actually come up with a proper plan though. I hope it includes an element for dealing with the vapours and palpitations of those who finally realise we are actually leaving the EU.

On balance though I am all for spending at home rather than giving cash to the EU even if that will only be a small contribution to the overall amount.

Plus I just dislocated a finger so might need a little TLC for that in due course.
Put simply we either fund everything or next to nothing, yes we may be the worst country for cancer care but then again if we stopped providing vanity operations such as gender reassignment, free first in the door health care for visitors and turned back the clock to 1960 say we may be able to afford these things?
 
#34
Put simply we either fund everything or next to nothing, yes we may be the worst country for cancer care but then again if we stopped providing vanity operations such as gender reassignment, free first in the door health care for visitors and turned back the clock to 1960 say we may be able to afford these things?
Definitely a good case for prioritising certain types of surgery other more non essential ones
 
#35
The oldies have a right to feel aggrieved; their lifetime tax contributions should have been accrued, invested and held in trust for them - in which case there'd be no care funding crisis now. If the oldies had had the opportunity or been compelled to put the same tax contributions into a private care insurance scheme, they'd now be well taken care of. Instead, government has just pished everything away and has to look for scapegoats.

What really beggars belief in the whole NHS funding crisis is that there isn't even the most basic of budgetary calculations involved. Simply put, the NHS is a limitless liability cost, and it costs a lot per head of population - but the government doesn't even know (or won't reveal) how many people it is servicing. Just what is the UK population today - 63 million, or more like 83 million?
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#36
Time for proof of entitlement on admission perhaps?
 

Joker62

ADC
Book Reviewer
#37
Simply pointing out where the money is spent...
Obviously, thanks to advances in medicine, people are living longer and we are talking Baby Boomers here, the ones whose parents turned out kids due to the decline in population after WW2, so there are more of them.
 

Joker62

ADC
Book Reviewer
#38
Time for proof of entitlement on admission perhaps?
Good in theory, but NHS staff won't do it as they aren't "policemen". The NHS should employ people whose sole job is to check entitlement at the front desk (as in A&E desk). I have a friend whose son works in billing in a major South London hospital and he reckons that only something like between 10-20% is actually recovered.
 
#39
Obviously, thanks to advances in medicine, people are living longer and we are talking Baby Boomers here, the ones whose parents turned out kids due to the decline in population after WW2, so there are more of them.
Indeed.

I'm just pointing out where the money is spent.

I find these NHS threads devolve into rants about health tourism when it's a drop in the ocean and even eliminating access to any no UK citizens wouldn't fix the funding issue by a long shot.

0.3% of the cost to the NHS comes from health tourism

Health tourism: what's the cost?

The human cost of the 'health tourism' crackdown
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#40
Good in theory, but NHS staff won't do it as they aren't "policemen". The NHS should employ people whose sole job is to check entitlement at the front desk (as in A&E desk). I have a friend whose son works in billing in a major South London hospital and he reckons that only something like between 10-20% is actually recovered.
Yup employ someone however knowing the NHS they will be illegals
 

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