Useful

**ugly** · 05-05-2008, 11:35

I'm frankly surprised that the Erics didnt experiment on gyppos etc in the camps? Having seen some of their post op WW1 studies into wound ballistics I would have thought it was high on the list.
Perhaps they did and we just arent advertising the fact that we also use the studies?

**HE117** · 05-05-2008, 11:38

Originally Posted by ugly

Although to be honest, my personal preferences would be:

Light - .455 Webley
Rifle - .577/.450 Martini Henry or .280 Ross
MMG - .55 Boys
Cannon - 2pdr Vickers
:D :D :D

OK OK so I was joking about the Vickers- what about the COW gun :D

**Gun_Nut** · 05-05-2008, 15:37

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

Coming back to the ballistic tests, they all seem to have the bullet travelling at muzzle velocity rather than a 100/300/600m velocity. The test seems more suitable for comparing pistol cartridges.

Another point that I think is wrong is that they show effects in 60cm of solid gelatin. People just aren't made like that. The depth of expansion for most of those rounds would be in the chest cavity or lower abdomen (not much like gelatin) or in the far side of a thigh. In arms or lower legs, the main cavity would not occur. I think that in most cases a head shot would be incapacitating irrespective of penetration.

Your first point is a fair one. The attached chart from one of the NDIA Small Arms conferences shows how the lethality of 5.56 drops off with range (it also shows why the M4 is crap!). You would clearly need to do similar testing with any new calibre.

As to your second point. Testing in a semi-infinite material is a normal testing protocol. You can see 2 lines on the charts. 30cm is what most authorities recommend as the minimum penetration for SAA, whereas 20cm is the average depth of a human torso.

**HE117** · 07-05-2008, 13:49

Slightly off topic, however the thread has been a bit quiet over the past few days....

I was shooting my 8mm Lebel last weekend and getting some fairly good groups using 7.92 mauser bullets, which are actually a couple of thou too small. Somebody saw some of the ammo lying about and said " is that some of this new dumpy bench rest stuff"? Having been told tha the round originated in 1888 there was some shaking of heads etc..

What comes around, goes around....

**tangosix** · 07-05-2008, 13:55

Hello,

regarding the wound ballistics images,I think the faint white and yellow lines are meant to represent thicknesses of limbs and torsos.
It is notable that some rounds would do little damage in a frontal shot.

tangosix.

Edited to add I wish I had read all of Gun_Nut's post before writing this!

**ugly** · 07-05-2008, 14:35

Originally Posted by HE117

Slightly off topic, however the thread has been a bit quiet over the past few days....

I was shooting my 8mm Lebel last weekend and getting some fairly good groups using 7.92 mauser bullets, which are actually a couple of thou too small. Somebody saw some of the ammo lying about and said " is that some of this new dumpy bench rest stuff"? Having been told tha the round originated in 1888 there was some shaking of heads etc..

What comes around, goes around....

I suspect they were thinking about the PPC cases which all originate from the M43 7.62 x 39 case.
The .22 Bozz is a smaller version.
I like laughing at all the new calibre pundits, lets face it nothing is really totally new.
Bruce Potts developed a load for the .338 Lapua bullet loaded into a necked out M43 case. Just Roe legal in Scotland.

**EX_STAB** · 15-05-2008, 08:10

Pistols.

Naturally we don't end up discussing these much as those of us who aren't serving don't get to play with them anymore and those who are serving never see one unless they're on ops. Anyway, this:
http://www.grandpower.eu/_EN_Modification_K102R.htm

Caught my eye. it has a "double tap mode" in which it fires a two round "burst". Seems fairly well controlled under recoil too going by this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL7RQ...eature=related

Now generally I'm not a fan of the "pray and spray" technique and consider that marksmanship is more important than simply getting rounds downrange but this looks as though it has some merit for people who don't get to practice as much as they need to.

**ugly** · 15-05-2008, 08:27

Interesting definetly, I have seen a body builder hold his 9mm Browning as steadily as that but sadly he couldnt double tap as quickly as that very interesting piece of kit could. Now go back to pre 97 and it would possibly be illegal for us civilian shooters anyway.