Thread: LSW...the Armys view...

Originally Posted by One_of_the_strange

Gravelbelly - you're quite right about devolving this sort of capability. I can - and with my tongue only partly in my cheek - recommend the "Hammers Slammers" books by David Drake as a good place to start writing the URD.

Even as an avid sci-fi geek, I have avoided David Drake so far - no real reason; it just seemed too pulpy, and one book by John Ringo was too many. How about Jerry Pournelle (dodgy politics aside)?

I'll see your Hammer and raise you Charles Stross' "Halting State" as a much better look at how technology might impact processes and systems.

Anyway, my aim would be simple - to reduce the time on target of a fire mission to close on that of a target within a silent fire plan; by reducing where possible those individual tasks which can be eased by the use of simple technology, and by data transmission instead of voice.

Originally Posted by Canader

Rucksack SAS, 600 rds, belt emerges from the Bergen over the right hand shoulder of the #2. Give it whompo, mate...

I thought Gravelbelly's point was that you don't always have a number 2.

Possibly the main failure of the LSW is that it is too similar to the other weapons in the section. When firing, it doesn't sound or look different to other weapons fire. SLA Marshall (regardless of his methodology, or lack of it) noted that soldiers with a support weapon felt more responsible and more likely to fire it. With the LSW, the additional effect is not obvious compared to the rifle, so the user is less likely to feel that he had to get involved as much to make a difference, unlike a Bren to a Lee Enfield, or a GPMG or a Minimi to an SA80 or SLR

Originally Posted by incendiarycutlery

Originally Posted by Canader

Rucksack SAS, 600 rds, belt emerges from the Bergen over the right hand shoulder of the #2. Give it whompo, mate...

I thought Gravelbelly's point was that you don't always have a number 2.

Possibly the main failure of the LSW is that it is too similar to the other weapons in the section. When firing, it doesn't sound or look different to other weapons fire. SLA Marshall (regardless of his methodology, or lack of it) noted that soldiers with a support weapon felt more responsible and more likely to fire it. With the LSW, the additional effect is not obvious compared to the rifle, so the user is less likely to feel that he had to get involved as much to make a difference, unlike a Bren to a Lee Enfield, or a GPMG or a Minimi to an SA80 or SLR

Well, that's crap then. You ALWAYS have a number 2 of some kind in the infantry, whether it's the mucker on your right in the assualt or the last big chod you left in the ditch over there. :D

Rucksack SAS, 600 rds, belt emerges from the Bergen over the right hand shoulder of the #2. Give it whompo, mate...[/quote]

Saw a regiment guy with a GPMG with the belt snaking into his Bergan, on Corporate!
My view is the LSW is not a good fire support weapon because of it being magazine fed. Certainly in 2 para in '82 we had 2 GPMG's per section, a knock-on of this was patrol company had to give theirs up and were issued LMG's. We were as a disadvantage in terms of fire support compared to the rifle coys.
Saying all this, the LSW would be a suitable designated marksman weapon, taking into account the Army has 1000's of them that are cluttering up armouries, and it would be a cost effective solution.

Originally Posted by para-dox

Rucksack SAS, 600 rds, belt emerges from the Bergen over the right hand shoulder of the #2. Give it whompo, mate...

Saw a regiment guy with a GPMG with the belt snaking into his Bergan, on Corporate!
My view is the LSW is not a good fire support weapon because of it being magazine fed. Certainly in 2 para in '82 we had 2 GPMG's per section, a knock-on of this was patrol company had to give theirs up and were issued LMG's. We were as a disadvantage in terms of fire support compared to the rifle coys.
Saying all this, the LSW would be a suitable designated marksman weapon, taking into account the Army has 1000's of them that are cluttering up armouries, and it would be a cost effective solution.[/quote]

Exactly. I've done the same with patrol packs of various types. You just need to be careful and check the belt feed every once in awhile.

The best thing to do with the LSWs would be to sell them to civvy shooters and give them Section 5 Authority to hold them for target shooting.

The next generation upgrade for the Infantry weapon would be available for zero development cost! :D


Otherwise, remove the fore-end. Remove the bipod from the fore-end.

Fit the Picatinny fore_end. Rework the bipod to fit the picatinny fore-end.

Fit a x6 optical sight (The X6 ACOG with miniature Red Dot would be ideal)

Fit the Vortex flash eliminator arranged to take a bayonet.

Optional - fit a laser Range finder to the fore-end.

Why not simply go with the minimi along with the paraminimi, the minimi having a longer barrel than the L110A3, you then have the capability to reach out and touch a few people a bit further than the rifle can do and nobody has to haul that god awful trash around with them. Or am I thinking too sensibly here? ;)

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

The best thing to do with the LSWs would be to sell them to civvy shooters and give them Section 5 Authority to hold them for target shooting.

The next generation upgrade for the Infantry weapon would be available for zero development cost! :D


Otherwise, remove the fore-end. Remove the bipod from the fore-end.

Fit the Picatinny fore_end. Rework the bipod to fit the picatinny fore-end.

Fit a x6 optical sight (The X6 ACOG with miniature Red Dot would be ideal)

Fit the Vortex flash eliminator arranged to take a bayonet.

Optional - fit a laser Range finder to the fore-end.

I pretty much had the same idea myself about turning it back into 'a rifle', especially re the optical sight.

LSW is an accurate weapon on s/s and pinging fig 11's out to 800m+ with a better sight than x4 shouldn't be a problem.
The Toms will soon get used to carrying it as a rifle although the point of balance is shite

Originally Posted by prince_jammy

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

The best thing to do with the LSWs would be to sell them to civvy shooters and give them Section 5 Authority to hold them for target shooting.

The next generation upgrade for the Infantry weapon would be available for zero development cost! :D


Otherwise, remove the fore-end. Remove the bipod from the fore-end.

Fit the Picatinny fore_end. Rework the bipod to fit the picatinny fore-end.

Fit a x6 optical sight (The X6 ACOG with miniature Red Dot would be ideal)

Fit the Vortex flash eliminator arranged to take a bayonet.

Optional - fit a laser Range finder to the fore-end.

I pretty much had the same idea myself about turning it back into 'a rifle', especially re the optical sight.

LSW is an accurate weapon on s/s and pinging fig 11's out to 800m+ with a better sight than x4 shouldn't be a problem.
The Toms will soon get used to carrying it as a rifle although the point of balance is shite

Accurate by SA80 standards or truly accurate?

LSW CRACKING PIECE OF KIT.....THATS WHY PARA REG HAVNT USED IT FOR YEARS. GET THE GPMGS N MINIMIS ON THE GO.

Originally Posted by para_sands

LSW CRACKING PIECE OF KIT.....THATS WHY PARA REG HAVNT USED IT FOR YEARS. GET THE GPMGS N MINIMIS ON THE GO.

No need to shout.

Although our LSW's are just cluttering up the armoury and have done for the last 10 years apparently!

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

Otherwise, remove the fore-end. Remove the bipod from the fore-end.

Fit the Picatinny fore_end. Rework the bipod to fit the picatinny fore-end.

Fit a x6 optical sight (The X6 ACOG with miniature Red Dot would be ideal)

Fit the Vortex flash eliminator arranged to take a bayonet.

Agree with all of that, it would lighter and less muzzle heavy that the current LSW and would be better for long range shooting than either the current LSW or the rifle.

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

Originally Posted by prince_jammy

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

The best thing to do with the LSWs would be to sell them to civvy shooters and give them Section 5 Authority to hold them for target shooting.

The next generation upgrade for the Infantry weapon would be available for zero development cost! :D


Otherwise, remove the fore-end. Remove the bipod from the fore-end.

Fit the Picatinny fore_end. Rework the bipod to fit the picatinny fore-end.

Fit a x6 optical sight (The X6 ACOG with miniature Red Dot would be ideal)

Fit the Vortex flash eliminator arranged to take a bayonet.

Optional - fit a laser Range finder to the fore-end.

I pretty much had the same idea myself about turning it back into 'a rifle', especially re the optical sight.

LSW is an accurate weapon on s/s and pinging fig 11's out to 800m+ with a better sight than x4 shouldn't be a problem.
The Toms will soon get used to carrying it as a rifle although the point of balance is shite

Accurate by SA80 standards or truly accurate?

For sure, the LSW will never be a sniper rifle, but it's accurate enough for most of the 'good shots' in a rifle platoon. Most of our Bods are expected to hit a fig 11 at 600m with it.

As for the SA80 accuracy?...i know fellas who were 'average to poor' with the SLR but were wearing crossed rifles after firing the same APWT once we converted to SA80. Even hitting tgts at 500m and beyond with a rifle aint exactly hard.

I think that both weapons are caple of very good accuracy but the sights do need to be x6 on the LSW in order to reach out and 'share the love'.

More magnification on a sight allows you to discern your target and observe fall of shot better (given a suitable clarity of optic) but it doesn't make for more accurate shooting.

I do wonder if some of the problem with the LSW is that the noise to weight ratio isn't high enough.

Originally Posted by Sensesworkingovertime

Originally Posted by para_sands

LSW CRACKING PIECE OF KIT.....THATS WHY PARA REG HAVNT USED IT FOR YEARS. GET THE GPMGS N MINIMIS ON THE GO.

No need to shout.

Although our LSW's are just cluttering up the armoury and have done for the last 10 years apparently!

For Para reg, that's not shouting mate.

BRING UP THE GENERAL 'N GIVE IT BIG LICKS, SELL THE WATCHES AND WOMEN FOR PINTS AT THE TRAF, THEN HAVE A GOOD SCRAP WITH MORTARS AND MAKE A CURRY IN THE MOP BUCKET!!!!!

See, much better... ahh.. Oi loves the Reg oi do.... snif