Originally Posted by mason53

I should give context to what i am about to say in that i am gay man in the army

with regards to work private life separation. I completely agree that it would be stupid to start a relationship with someone in the same unit and i cant believe many would think this was a good idea, regardless of sexuality. It seems peoples' biggest concern is the banging of the PC drum claiming they have been discriminated against. What you will find if you talk to gay guys in the services is that they dont want to have people on egg shells around them, they joined for the banter and piss taking. Much the same way you would take the piss out of someone for being ginger, fat, stupid; taking the piss out of someone for being gay is the same. The difference is that when it starts to affect career progression.

someone raised an interesting point about married quarters and children; this is a separate issue outside of the right to join the military. If people are upset about the idea of gays having kids then the reality is in this country it is legal and evidence has shown the kids turn out fine.

Im not sure i have added much to debate but actually reinforced what many are saying already, as most gay serving members would.

anyway... TITS ARE AMAZING

Mason, my little French tickler, if you are what you say you are....and I'm not fussed either way tbh, how can anyone guarantee, including 2 gay soldiers, that they won't fall for each other and then have the discipline to ask to be separated?.....and I'm not sure about any evidence saying that boys with two male 'parents' in an openly gay relationship turn out fine at all.

I do know that kids are impressionable and easily influenced, I would like to think that nature or biology would kick in when a hetro boy meets a girl he fancies, but what evidence can you show that indicates that it doesn't leave younger children 'dazed and confused' when they are confronted with an openly gay life style, every day, in their home? Do you want any young children being picked on after telling their school friends that 'Oh, I have 2 Mummys/Daddys'?
Schooling for padbrats is disjointed enough with a parent often being away, in laws invading, without anything else on top.

The SFA issue will also cause dramas as I know of 2 lesbian squaddies who got a quarter, split up after a few months, one is still living there for the moment at least, the other is back in the block. But what happens when the one left in the SFA meets a new partner, moves her in and therefore demands the entitlement to SFA?...maybe someone from Welfare or HIC can add a comment re this?


Good luck to you and your struggles ahead, just tell your mates not to push their luck and and start whinging about their 'entitlements', blah, blah, blah so it ends up that they are better treated than both the pads and singlies, due to their sexuality.



Re SFA for 2 gay soldiers (male) even if they are 'married, 'It's not inconceivable that if this occurred with 2 gay men and an adopted or even biological child was involved, who keeps the SFA if there is no natural/biological father?

I'm not playing devils advocate, just thinking of potential issues further down the line, because we can pretty much guarantee that the chances of this escalating into head shaking madness is very high.

Can I just point out, that the British army started letting soldiers be openly gay about a decade ago, and since then we've pretty much lost the two biggest campaigns we've fought. Now i'm not saying those two facts are related, but coincidence, hmm, you decide............................................ .?

i guess the issue of whether kids turn out ok will be open for debate forever; much in the same way people used to believe that a single mum made a terrible parent etc. Having seen the effect of so called normal families on their children, i dont believe there is any model parent set up. From my experience the main thing is that the parents support their children. The argument you are putting forward about it being confusing for other people when the child has to explain that he as two mummies or two daddies. This however is more of an issue for those around the child and not for the child themselves. Your comment of a gay lifestyle is quite out dated now, almost daily mail-esque; implying their is such a lifestyle or agenda. This opinion usually come from lack of exposure to normal gay individuals rather then the images put forward for television or in newspapers. I guess you have concerns about a child being taught that being gay or lesbian is ok is wrong. This can be argued from both sides until blue in the face. In fact i believe a similar argument was made about mixed raced relationships and those across different religions

the drama you are describing in the SFA seems to be lacking common sense and seems who ever gave it to them was a little foolish, perhaps trying not to appear to discriminate which does no one any good.

Gay parents would dual adopt much like straight couples, both partners would be the parent. Whether you agree with this is a matter of personal opinion

Did anyone ask to be told this news? If not why are you telling us?

Originally Posted by Nato Standard123

The SFA issue will also cause dramas as I know of 2 lesbian squaddies who got a quarter, split up after a few months, one is still living there for the moment at least, the other is back in the block. But what happens when the one left in the SFA meets a new partner, moves her in and therefore demands the entitlement to SFA?...maybe someone from Welfare or HIC can add a comment re this?

Re SFA for 2 gay soldiers (male) even if they are 'married, 'It's not inconceivable that if this occurred with 2 gay men and an adopted or even biological child was involved, who keeps the SFA if there is no natural/biological father?

I'm not playing devils advocate, just thinking of potential issues further down the line, because we can pretty much guarantee that the chances of this escalating into head shaking madness is very high.

Oh dear...read your quote again and instead of lesbian read 'hetro married couple' For example...I know a married couple who split up and someone moved out of the quarter. Mate it happens every day. Obviously, one person can remain in the quarter until 90 days notice has been given. If someone else moved into the quarter then even after 90 days they would have to vacate which is exactly the same as any other married or civil partnership couple so I don't understand your point.

For the record, I live in a quarter with my same sex partner who I have been in a civil partnership with for 5 years and been together with for 10 years. We have a child, who seems ok to me. If there were to be a breakup and the service person kept custody of the child, clearly they would retain the quarter - exactly the same as a heterosexual. Gay's aren't asking for more rights - just the same rights.

Originally Posted by mason53

i guess the issue of whether kids turn out ok will be open for debate forever; much in the same way people used to believe that a single mum made a terrible parent etc. Having seen the effect of so called normal families on their children, i dont believe there is any model parent set up. From my experience the main thing is that the parents support their children. The argument you are putting forward about it being confusing for other people when the child has to explain that he as two mummies or two daddies. This however is more of an issue for those around the child and not for the child themselves. Your comment of a gay lifestyle is quite out dated now, almost daily mail-esque; implying their is such a lifestyle or agenda. This opinion usually come from lack of exposure to normal gay individuals rather then the images put forward for television or in newspapers. I guess you have concerns about a child being taught that being gay or lesbian is ok is wrong. This can be argued from both sides until blue in the face. In fact i believe a similar argument was made about mixed raced relationships and those across different religions

the drama you are describing in the SFA seems to be lacking common sense and seems who ever gave it to them was a little foolish, perhaps trying not to appear to discriminate which does no one any good.

Gay parents would dual adopt much like straight couples, both partners would be the parent. Whether you agree with this is a matter of personal opinion

Ok, I agree with you on the parenting side of things in that even so called 'normal family set ups' can be pretty damaging - in fact there is even a book about it called 'They f*ck you up, your Mum and Dad' or something similar, but it is still something to be considered and has the existence of same sex parents really been a part of society long enough for any worthwhile, unbiased reports or findings to really show any effects, good or bad?

I'm just thinking about the straight teenage boy or girl, telling their friends about their home set up if they have same sex 'parents', both have no need to be ashamed at all, and family set ups now are as fractured as they have ever been, but how easy would it be for those teenagers?

So because of that, I'm not sure if your comment about' the people around the child having to deal with the issue' re the two mums or two dads set up should be explained away in such a blasé manner.

For sure, other parents may have an issue with it but it's not often that the child is listened to anyway. People are usually too wrapped up in their own relationships dramas to sometimes consider what effect that it is having on their children or step children, no one bothers to ask them how they feel about anything or if they do it's only as an afterthought.

If you're entering into a pretty traditional Army set up i.e Husband and wife + children , and lets admit that the overwhelming majority of families on the patch will be just that, then to simply say to other people 'this is the situation, deal with it', is a lot easier to say, then to live with if you are the child of that relationship.

I don't know if I made a comment or implied anything about the gay life style?... I said that I knew of a case where two same sex soldiers in a civil partnership where given SFA and then split up, and I just wondered what the scenario would be when one of them left the property, and what happens if there were children involved , not sure where the outdated bit came into it? if anything its pretty much in date or certainly has the potential to be something that is likely to crop up in the future.

I don't think that I have not been less exposed to any gay lifestyle, any more than any other lifestyle....maybe I wouldn't know anyway? I do know that I have worked in various environments and have had colleagues that included a black lesbian who was living with a white lesbian, a man who was going through the treatment to become a woman, openly gay men, reformed alcoholics, drug users, etc.....the full range of human beings, who am I to judge and why would I want to?

I do know that any relationship can have problems, any partner can be a selfish idiot and any man or woman can sleep around whether they are married, living together, gay/hetro or anything else, and I'm certainly not saying that gay people are any more promiscuous than straight people...especially squaddies, who aren't famous for being faithful or for having long marriages/partnerships, so we can bin the Daily Mail comparisons.

I'm too long in the tooth to worry about children being taught about what is right or wrong re a person's sexuality, the disgusting child abuse cases and sex scandals from every part of society has shown me that kindness and concern for others is one of the most important things that children need to be taught and shown.

My girlfriend of 4 years is of mixed Guyanese/Nigerian origin and I've also dated other 'Black' women, so I don't take too much notice of opinions per se, but I would be maybe just as ignorant not to wonder why other people did have an opinion over who I dated.....but what's it got to do with them anyway?

As for the adoption thing and personal opinions, fine, but it becomes more than an opinion when a soldier cannot be deployed due to childcare issues after exercising a right to be a parent, biological or otherwise.


You last post seemed to have a few defensive remarks in it IMO, no bothers to me, you have to voice your views and good for you for doing that, just as I am, but I'm not having a pop at you or the situation....all I'm saying is that I don't care what a persons sexuality is, It's their business, and equality is a right for all, but I and many others would be entitled to be pretty annoyed if the rules were, for want of a better phrase ' too positive' e.g Should it be that for two gay soldiers, or a gay soldier and his/her civvy partner to get SFA, they would have to be 'married'?

......A new angle on Pad shagging eh?

Even on other forums, hetro squaddies are whinging that having to be married to get SFA is 'old fashioned' and that they should get a quarter as soon as they get engaged or become a parent, with some of them saying that 'We are in a 4+ year relationship, have two children together and are as committed as any married couple' .......

Cool, you won't mind actually getting married then will you?

if someone is in a civil partnership it is regarded as legally equivalent. It is different to common law marriage which doesnt exist; therefore if someone has a civil partnership then they are entitled to married quarters.

From the side of things i have seen, improving accommodation through getting married is not uncommon. This in itself creates many welfare issues which we see a lot of where i work.

"situation, deal with it', is a lot easier to say, then to live with if you are the child of that relationship."

i do agree with you that it is a significantly easier to say than do.

Originally Posted by ardillo

Oh dear...read your quote again and instead of lesbian read 'hetro married couple' For example...I know a married couple who split up and someone moved out of the quarter. Mate it happens every day. Obviously, one person can remain in the quarter until 90 days notice has been given. If someone else moved into the quarter then even after 90 days they would have to vacate which is exactly the same as any other married or civil partnership couple so I don't understand your point.

For the record, I live in a quarter with my same sex partner who I have been in a civil partnership with for 5 years and been together with for 10 years. We have a child, who seems ok to me. If there were to be a breakup and the service person kept custody of the child, clearly they would retain the quarter - exactly the same as a heterosexual. Gay's aren't asking for more rights - just the same rights.

Cheers for answering my questions. I'm just trying to get clear in my mind how this works, wasn't trying to make a point as I have no need, but with a 'Hetro couple' they are 'married' and I didn't know that the mob accepts civil partnerships as the two Lesbians that I mentioned were 'married'.......

Ta for clearing it up.

If it all works for you, then good luck to you.

Originally Posted by Nato Standard123

Mason, my little French tickler, if you are what you say you are....and I'm not fussed either way tbh, how can anyone guarantee, including 2 gay soldiers, that they won't fall for each other and then have the discipline to ask to be separated?.....and I'm not sure about any evidence saying that boys with two male 'parents' in an openly gay relationship turn out fine at all.

I do know that kids are impressionable and easily influenced, I would like to think that nature or biology would kick in when a hetro boy meets a girl he fancies, but what evidence can you show that indicates that it doesn't leave younger children 'dazed and confused' when they are confronted with an openly gay life style, every day, in their home? Do you want any young children being picked on after telling their school friends that 'Oh, I have 2 Mummys/Daddys'?
Schooling for padbrats is disjointed enough with a parent often being away, in laws invading, without anything else on top.

The SFA issue will also cause dramas as I know of 2 lesbian squaddies who got a quarter, split up after a few months, one is still living there for the moment at least, the other is back in the block. But what happens when the one left in the SFA meets a new partner, moves her in and therefore demands the entitlement to SFA?...maybe someone from Welfare or HIC can add a comment re this?


Good luck to you and your struggles ahead, just tell your mates not to push their luck and and start whinging about their 'entitlements', blah, blah, blah so it ends up that they are better treated than both the pads and singlies, due to their sexuality.



Re SFA for 2 gay soldiers (male) even if they are 'married, 'It's not inconceivable that if this occurred with 2 gay men and an adopted or even biological child was involved, who keeps the SFA if there is no natural/biological father?

I'm not playing devils advocate, just thinking of potential issues further down the line, because we can pretty much guarantee that the chances of this escalating into head shaking madness is very high.

Are you some sort of cretin?

If having homosexual parents will turn an adopted child gay... then why do we have gay people at all? Because for years we've had only hetrosexual parenting. Seems it matters not one jot. It matters far more that a child has a loving and strong family bond with either a single parent or parents of mixed/same sex.

Kids getting picked on will stop eventually, once everyone gets out of the dark age. Some blokes like blonds, other blokes like blokes, come to terms with it.

Re SFA.

I am going to use the term 'partners' now. This term relates in this instance to either a hetro or homosexual partnership in which either of the pair are in the forces or both.

The partners only get entitlement to a SFA on the completion of marriage or a civil partnership.

Should they get devorced then the entitlement ceases. In the event of no child, then IIRC both should actually vacate the SFA. A civvie would have to go and find civvie digs, the now newly re-treaded singly would hit the SSA and shag anything that moves for the next 6 mnths, whilst periodically acting maudlin about the break up.

If one is left in SFA to clear out the house or what have you and finds a new love, then new love doesn't move in until a marriage or partnership is again cemented. Regardless of sexual orientation. That is in the licence to occupy.

Your lesbian example, I can't comment on why the other partner is still in SFA, possibly to keep her out of SFA becasue they only had one girls block? Hence the two 'devorcees' would be in the same block... poss dramas? Either way the one that is still in there, may be moving out shortly and still couldn't just shack up with a new beau. As the licence doesn't cover the new love.

If you're aren't playing Devils Advocate then you are just playing the fool.

All those furtive fumblings in the drying room can now be forgiven.

The wrvs lady, that caught you wrist deep, whose family you threatened can finally rest easy.

The new regimental motto shall be "if it farts fuck it"

Pink pt tops will be embraced rather than blamed on laundry malfunction.

Sleeping with one eye open will take on a whole new meaning