ARmy Rumour SErvice

**in_the_cheapseats** · 29-11-2007, 14:31

There have been a series of rumblings about internal strife in the MoD lately. There have been debates on here on why Drayson went. The reasons are various - head to head and disagrement with Swiss Des, a head to head and stand up disagreement with the IAB on the downselect of the FRES UVI, Treasury interference etc etc.

We are now going to start paying the price. Two articles today suggest that the more conservative members of MoD/IPT and Treasury will now get their way with FRES going to the right. IOC goes back to 2017 and Drayson's ideal of 2012 goes out the window.

Telegraph Article

Army forced into retreat

We also hear that none of the vehicles in Trials of Truth were good enough. Personally I think that is bollocks. Another comment I've heard was the trails were inconclusive as there was no way to differentiate the vehicles as the trails were set too easy.

I know there are some non compliance issues with each of the platforms. But the French don't have a habit of buying crap and neither do the Germans. Allegedly Nexter was the Drayson choice and the IAB wanted GD and the unproven Piranha.

With Drayson resigning, who was, for all his faults, a kick arse industrialist with pedigree and was fighting for us to kit early, the Army is now beholded to a career politician.

If it is true that the IAB decided to kick back which seems to be the straw that broke the camels back, leading to Drayson's resignation, I'd just like to thank them personally in their good work in putting back the FRES programme by 5 years.

What a prize fcuk up....

**trackbasher** · 29-11-2007, 14:44

The point of FRES was to have light armoured vehicle other than the Warrior to be able to transport around to troublespots by air. Even if the FRES appeared the UK does not have enough air transport to get it there quickly and in numbers so it seems pretty pointless. The money would be better spent on more transport helicopters and more body armour for the troops.

**Augustus** · 29-11-2007, 14:45

[quote="in_the_cheapseats.

IAB wanted GD and the unproven Piranha.

[/quote]

Might be talking out your Arrse here, the GD Pihranha is also known as the LAVIII, currently doing rather well in Kandahar Province with Canadian flags on it.

**CrapSpy** · 29-11-2007, 14:46

So a total fleet requirement set by the Treasury as opposed to what the Army actually needs to equip/replace already ancient vehicles. Magic.

I can imagine the argument from the Treasury:

You want 3,000 new vehicles? But we just paid to buy 700 of those new Bulldog things and a couple of hundred Poodles and Shitzhus. What did you say they were called again? So by our reckoning you already have about 1,000 new vehicles; why do you all of a sudden want 3,000 of these FRES things? Tell you what we'll do, budget tight and all that, you keep your 1,000 new vehilces and we'll let you buy another 1,000 more. OK?

**CrapSpy** · 29-11-2007, 14:50

[quote="Augustus"]

Originally Posted by "in_the_cheapseats.

IAB wanted GD and the unproven Piranha.

[/quote

Might be talking out your Arrse here, the GD Pihranha is also known as the LAVIII, currently doing rather well in Kandahar Province with Canadian flags on it.

No it isn't. GD are offering the Piranha Evolution for FRES UV. Currently only 1 in existence I believe and entirely untested. Meanwhile, back to the real world, VBCI and Boxer are already/about to enter series production.

The LAVIII design is also already decades old. I don't think it has much growth potential left.

**in_the_cheapseats** · 29-11-2007, 14:50

[quote="Augustus"]

Originally Posted by "in_the_cheapseats.

IAB wanted GD and the unproven Piranha.

[/quote

Might be talking out your Arrse here, the GD Pihranha is also known as the LAVIII, currently doing rather well in Kandahar Province with Canadian flags on it.

Nope, you are - the GD offering is the LAV 4.5 or Evolution which is a 8x8 veh. Only one vehicle has been made, the test bed and that is the one that took part in the trials of truth. If you had been to any of the shows over the last couple of years you would have seen it.

Get your info right

**CrapSpy** · 29-11-2007, 14:51

[quote="in_the_cheapseats"]

Originally Posted by Augustus

Originally Posted by "in_the_cheapseats.

IAB wanted GD and the unproven Piranha.

[/quote

Might be talking out your Arrse here, the GD Pihranha is also known as the LAVIII, currently doing rather well in Kandahar Province with Canadian flags on it.

Nope, you are - the GD offering is the LAV 4.5 or Evolution which is a 8x8 veh. Only one vehicle has been made, the test bed and that is the one that took part in the trials of truth. If you had been to any of the shows ove the last couple of years you would have seen it.

Get yout info right

**Taz_Man** · 29-11-2007, 14:52

I suppose this is another case of 'good day to bury bad news'. The whole sheite storm that is the FRES debacle stands as nothing next to dodgy party contributions and the loss of a third of the populations bank details.

I despair. :(

**Crunchie** · 29-11-2007, 14:53

Not an expert, but i believe FRES was envisaged by the MOD in the mid 90's in line with our role as a "peacekeeping" army, light, transportable, less thtreatening etc.

Trouble is the armies needs have moved on, the Israeli's have realised that if the majority of people are going to be living in urban areas, and urban warfare gives the insurgent a more level playing field, that is were the fighting is going to take place,then APC's need to be better protected, hence heavier armour, therefore heavier and slower, the whole concept of FRES is probably out dated.

The constant up armouring of Warrior, Bulldog, Mastiff is testamony to the focus on more protection over mobility.

What about buying Striker straight off the shelf, the yanks have sorted most of its problems out and it is held in high regard by its troops, more so than Bradley. Also makes it easier to beg parts off the yanks if we are using the same kit.

**in_the_cheapseats** · 29-11-2007, 14:58

Originally Posted by Crunchie

Not an expert, but i believe FRES was envisaged by the MOD in the mid 90's in line with our role as a "peacekeeping" army, light, transportable, less thtreatening etc.

Trouble is the armies needs have moved on, the Israeli's have realised that if the majority of people are going to be living in urban areas, and urban warfare gives the insurgent a more level playing field, that is were the fighting is going to take place,then APC's need to be better protected, hence heavier armour, therefore heavier and slower, the whole concept of FRES is probably out dated.

The constant up armouring of Warrior, Bulldog, Mastiff is testamony to the focus on more protection over mobility.

What about buying Striker straight off the shelf, the yanks have sorted most of its problems out and it is held in high regard by its troops, more so than Bradley. Also makes it easier to beg parts off the yanks if we are using the same kit.

So you suggest buying the the more lightly armoured US version of the CA LAV III that is being replaced by the US own upgrade programme FCS and is as Crap Spy has pointed out, is a vehicle already in service 10 years and doesn't have any stretch left?

Good forward thinking, mate