ARmy Rumour SErvice

**Moosaca** · 12-12-2007, 19:09

The market is a bit more - wide open - when dealing with a new car. For one you have a wider audience to appeal to. I can't see the procurement agencies coming up with a report that says: we find that more 'under 35s' prefer the multi-barrel 20mm cannon to the 'fire and forget' weapons pod! I believe that the more you want a piece of equipment to do - the longer it takes to design and build and more expensive it will surely be. You want an individual weapon system that is shock-proof, EM proof, chemical proof, hack-proof, weather proof, shelf life of 20+ yrs, low spare requirments, adaptable? Here is a big stick - go beat them to death!!!!!! Oh and it came in 50 million over budget!

**meridian** · 12-12-2007, 19:35

The medium weight FRES force is predicated on rapid deployment by air and the deployment of advanced 'effects'

It was envisaged that future missions would be characterised by lightning quick deployments of medium weight rapid reaction forces in aircraft, followed by a short sharp fight with Johnny foreigner, who, playing by our rules, would stand against us with conventional forces that we would see before leaving the barracks and destroy with precision munitions (sorry effects) 10 minutes after.

The few troops and vehicles that were delivered by air would be greeted by a welcome populace, rebuild some bridges and schools and be home in time for tea and cake.

The sheer effort and cost of deploying a full medium weight brigade is so vast (not even the US with their huge airlift capacity could do it in under 25 days) that it becomes ludicrous to even try it.

By the time the force has deployed by we could have lifted by sea a significant amphibious assault and follow on force with all the logistics needed, the snail beats the hare every time here.

The FRES UV and possibly recce variant are intended to be transported (rapidly of course) using the A400 but as weight creeps up the distance that the A400 can transport one (that would be its maximum number) FRES becomes strategically insignificant without air refuelling and with our limitless air refuelling assets, ha

This would add so many constraints on existing resources that it would be anything but rapid. The MoD have recognised this and come to the conclusion that FRES might be deployed by air for small scale focussed interventions with any sizeable and militarily useful force transported by sea.

As weights push past the A400 mark it will be only be able to be air transported by C17, err just like a Warrior, Mastiff or similar vehicles

There is of course still a need for a rapidly deployed force but we should not have to destroy our traditionally capable forces to do it by starving it of resources to fund the wonder kid FRES

The medium weight effects based nonsense kind of disappears when faced with this.

The whole FRES concept is therefore bankrupt at every level

I would replace the 432 with converted/new build Warriors and those converted Warriors replaced with new build ones inc all the fancy bits. So the whole armoured fighting unit can keep up with each other

Replace the CVR(T) with a an improved version making sure it was under 10 tonne to make sure it is tactically deployable by Chinook and strategically deployable in numbers by A400 and C17

Replace Saxon with something like a Mastiff

This would not need the shiny Boxer, Nexter or Pirahna IV that are simply us following US military fashion with their FCS and Stryker concepts.

**PassingBells** · 12-12-2007, 19:48

Originally Posted by Kitmarlowe

...
However. The two new aircraft carriers have taken 8 years to get to the point that contracts can be signed to actually start building. 8 years, during which time MoD has coughed up £300 million to pay for companies biding for a £3.8Billion+ contract for the "demonstration phase" of detailed design. WTF? Seemingly "The design continues to evolve" http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/cvf/ Seemingly armoured bulkheads and and armoured sides have been removed "in order to comply with cost limitations". ...

Just to put that in context, another new ship, the Qeen Mary 2 took 5 years to build from announcement to Sea Trials with the ship's maiden voyage 6 months later. Total cost: Estimated $800 million.
http://www.cunard.com/OurShips/defau...in=int&sub=his

Obviously a little less complex a vessel, but it shows what the private sector can achieve.

Oh, and the QE2 has been in service for 40 years and has racked up more sea miles than the new carriers ever will, including a short trip down to the South Atlantic in 1982.

**Mr Happy** · 13-12-2007, 07:56

Originally Posted by PassingBells

Just to put that in context, another new ship, the Qeen Mary 2 took 5 years to build from announcement to Sea Trials with the ship's maiden voyage 6 months later. Total cost: Estimated $800 million.
http://www.cunard.com/OurShips/defau...in=int&sub=his

FWIW I took the QM2 from NY - Southampton in 2004. She be luverly... Met Terry Waite too, didn't get a chance to lecture him on E&E or RTI but there you go...

**Mr Happy** · 13-12-2007, 07:59

Originally Posted by Gravelbelly

Quick, Cheap or Good: Pick two

I'll take Quick and Cheap. Or Quick and expensive. Either is fine.

Good is relative, and its not good if it rocks up after the battle is fought and the smoke is clearing..

**brighton hippy** · 13-12-2007, 08:15

fres was bollocks from the start rapid effects my arrse

**bakersfield** · 13-12-2007, 08:46

Originally Posted by meridian

The medium weight FRES force is predicated on rapid deployment by air and the deployment of advanced 'effects'

It was envisaged that future missions would be characterised by lightning quick deployments of medium weight rapid reaction forces in aircraft, followed by a short sharp fight with Johnny foreigner, who, playing by our rules, would stand against us with conventional forces that we would see before leaving the barracks and destroy with precision munitions (sorry effects) 10 minutes after.

The few troops and vehicles that were delivered by air would be greeted by a welcome populace, rebuild some bridges and schools and be home in time for tea and cake.

Meridian, I agree with you. But if I may play Devil's advocate to illustrate the lack of integrated thinking in MoD you have highlighted.

The above quote alludes mainly to two Cat A projects - FRES and FIST. Let's say FRES gets to the Investment Appraisal Board first and they present this argument. Fine, they get the nod to spend money on Concept.

Then FIST pitch up. Their basic premise is that huge amounts of money must be spent equipping dismounted soldiers, as everyone and their dog knows the truism - ground must be fought for, occupied and held; often for years.

Some bright spark on IAB says "Wait a minute, last week you said all we needed was a few engineers and a welcoming tea party when they get home". Both Sponsors are told to come back when they've worked it out. As there is only one pot of gold, the bunfight starts between people occupying offices next door to each other in MB. They're on 2 year tours, so they agree to call a truce for a few months, shoot off down the Dog and Duck and let their reliefs fight it out.

The IAB and Treasury are amused - big savings and promotions to be had.

The poor sod on the ground with piss poor vehicles and no kit just has to get on with it.

Somewhat flippant, but I tell you what - I'm pretty close. The inevitable result is years of bickering and delay, followed by compromise solutions which are FA use to man nor beast.

**Gravelbelly** · 13-12-2007, 09:17

Originally Posted by Mr Happy

Originally Posted by Gravelbelly

Quick, Cheap or Good: Pick two

I'll take Quick and Cheap. Or Quick and expensive. Either is fine.

Good is relative, and its not good if it rocks up after the battle is fought and the smoke is clearing..

Fair enough. Care to get into a Nimrod every day, making sure (of course) that it will take part in in-flight refueling? Don't worry, that fuel p***ing into the bomb bay is all part of your "acceptable risks".

How about a Chinook with the original FADEC? Don't worry, there's the Mull of Kintyre approaching.

Oh, and by the way, your rifle will be an SA80A1. Without such "good" items post trials as redesigned magazine catches and triggers - so you'll be leaving 5.56 all over Belfast, and you won't be able to pull the trigger in Norway.

Meanwhile, your ships will go to the Falklands with some interesting operational problems that won't reveal themselves until you try shooting a Sea Wolf at one of a pair of closely-spaced Skyhawks; and it refuses to fire because it keeps changing its mind about which is the greatest threat to the ship.

Nimrod AEW fits your description of "Quick and Expensive" - a couple of billion, a fleet of useless white elephants, but the acceptance trials started on time IIRC (the primary problem being that Boeing took well over a decade to put a radar station into an airliner, GEC claimed they could do it "quicker and cheaper").

The Shackleton AEW fits your description of "Quick and Cheap" - rip the APS-20 from the spare Gannet AEW (now that you've decommissioned Ark Royal), and bodge it into some surplus Lancaster replacements.

Which do you think was preferable; either of those, or the E-3 Sentry? I'll finish with another maxim that I've mentioned before somewhere:

On time, To budget, Meets specification: Pick Two.

**brighton hippy** · 13-12-2007, 09:30

SA80 was'nt even cheap in its original version or quick

plus the specification was bollocks as well

**loggiepuke** · 13-12-2007, 09:37

The point is that you 'cannae change the laws of Physics' - small and light = less well protected.

Equally - is the arguement for intervention operatrions bankrupt - to paraphrase John Reid "Tell you what fellas, just pop over to the 'Stan and bring stability to the South - dont worry the threat is low and you wont fire any ammo." Since then we have been busting a gut to improve the protection of our small, light and highly deployable platforms like CVR(T) - which now nearly weight the same as a MASTIFF!

FRES - work of fiction. Buy it and use it - if its good keep it, if its not get rid and move on.