Another look at trophy - bearing in mind the US and Russians are also developing systems similar to this one

Originally Posted by Yeoman_dai

The CV90 or the AMOS is more like it, and actually a fairly good pair of vehicles. Again though, until we perfect the active kill system to protect these lighter AFV's from AT missiles such as the Spike or Javelin then i'm afraid again its too bloody vulnerable. Till we do, the traditional MBT is going to be our only answer for poor weather direct fire capability.

Just to be clear - I support a medium weight vehicle mounting a large calibre weapon for direct fire, but at the moment, they are still too vulnerable. Give it a few years and that may change, till then MBT's will still have to stay around - not 356, but maybe a couple of battalions worth.

Has somebody being telling you porkies about Chally 2 and other MBT's withstanding Javelin to help you sleep at night?

Originally Posted by Caecilius

If by outsource, you mean make the Guardsmen hired actors rather than soldiers then I completely disagree. However, if you just mean creating a 'ceremonial' budget then I wouldn't see any problem with that, but all three areas that you mention are pulling in different directions. The HCav and the Guards fulfill an important ceremonial function as well as being operational units, the red arrows are a flashy public relations unit that are also important for national pride but aren't an operational unit and HMS Victory is a historical object of the upmost national importance that wont become operational again until the 2050 SDSR. All fulfill a purpose that is outside of the aim of the MOD, so perhaps they should be funded from other sources. It is vital, however, that the military aspect of these areas is maintained in full

Not sure if I was clear. My proposal was that all activities of the Armed Forces which do not relate to fighting wars, such as marching around London in funny hats, maintaining historical ships or flying non-operational aircraft (here we have Red Arrows and Battle of Britain Memorial Flight rolled into one) should be funded from one budget and all activities related to killing people be funded from the MoD one. Therefore all the money spent on bearskins for the guards and hotels for the Arrows is taken off the MoD budget and, assuming the budget is kept the same, can be spent on matters relating to national security.

You know that's such good money-from-nowhere I might just jack all this military jazz in and get a job with CMD ;)

Originally Posted by vampireuk

Has somebody being telling you porkies about Chally 2 and other MBT's withstanding Javelin to help you sleep at night?

:D I had no illusions when I was in green trust me... it's like someone nowadays telling me "yah yah, the Type 22 has an armour belt, they (who are 'they' anyway?) reckon that they're the only frigate we have that can withstand multiple torpedo strikes".... yeah, right, you ever seen a Spearfish?

Originally Posted by Yeoman_dai

Got to disagree with you there Semper - The Stryker MGS has had terrible terrible reports from the Soldiers using it out in Iraq and Afghanistan, the 105mm is a high velocity weapon and frankly is too much for the Piranha Chassis to cope with, it shakes badly every time it fires, its too top heavy, too lightly armoured to stand up to much return fire since it doesn't have an active hard or soft kill system and trying what the yanks have done, and packing shed loads of armour on it to cope just doesn't work - as I mentioned in an earlier post I made on this thread. It's a good idea, gone wrong. Plus, with that weight, even 8x8 doesn't cut it, especially on an overloaded suspension...

The CV90 or the AMOS is more like it, and actually a fairly good pair of vehicles. Again though, until we perfect the active kill system to protect these lighter AFV's from AT missiles such as the Spike or Javelin then i'm afraid again its too bloody vulnerable. Till we do, the traditional MBT is going to be our only answer for poor weather direct fire capability.

Just to be clear - I support a medium weight vehicle mounting a large calibre weapon for direct fire, but at the moment, they are still too vulnerable. Give it a few years and that may change, till then MBT's will still have to stay around - not 356, but maybe a couple of battalions worth.

I merely cited the Stryker as an example, my money is on the CV90 family too.

Top attack missiles will kill any current MBT with ease so the point of vulnerability is rather moot. The correct employment of these small beasties is as mobile direct fire for mounted and dismounted infantry with the useful ability to nail 2nd and 3rd tier tanks such as monkey model T72's and T55's. Proper tank killing should be done by the WAH-64 screen and/or your Challenger 2's if you take them.

The tanks are bought and paid for; £5M each? They cost us in spares, fuel, ammo and wages. As I've said before, you have to guard them because of the armour and pay for storage-so why not keep them? The smooth bore upgrade has been binned as the gat fits OK but they can't get the ammo to fit so we have a vehicle that will become iffy in the anti-tank role eventually but has the ability to chuck a big HE shell from under superb armour. Lose the armoured skills and you might not get them back easily.

Originally Posted by ObnoxiousJockGit

The tanks are bought and paid for; £5M each? They cost us in spares, fuel, ammo and wages. As I've said before, you have to guard them because of the armour and pay for storage-so why not keep them? The smooth bore upgrade has been binned as the gat fits OK but they can't get the ammo to fit so we have a vehicle that will become iffy in the anti-tank role eventually but has the ability to chuck a big HE shell from under superb armour. Lose the armoured skills and you might not get them back easily.

There we are.

Mothball or sell some, but keep the rest active for Inf support until they retire. Sounds like the death knell for BAOR though.

Originally Posted by GLOCK26

Reference the CAS platform. Jaguar was retired to release funds for an aircraft that was designed for the interception role. Typhoon. Is there an alternative to taking such a valuable asset and pointing it at the ground. How about a light attack aircraft that has achieved export orders around the world. Bae hawk.



One detail that really grinds my gears is this bunch of shrieking posseurs who, when they’re not flying ‘Ad Astra’ are booking hotel rooms by them. It cannot be in the national interest to have an entire squadron tied up in a nine ship aerobatic formation (plus spares) when most other teams manage with seven, or even five aircraft.



When the SDR decision makers start to prioritise defence spending, hopefully they will take into account the fact that The Red Arrows (Hawks) have been shagging the dog for the last thirty years. Not even the original (and definitive) team lasted that long when they were using the Gnat. Chop three reds. Or alternatively. Give them all the chop, and release an entire squadron for other tasks.

Wondered when the 'men in red' would be offered up in this cross service bun fight. As an outsider, take a look at yourselves, the Telegraph has conducted a pre-emptive strike. The decision will be made (or fudged) in due course, nothing is set in stone at this time. Quite possibly there will be equal hardships on all sides, no one will be exempt.

Originally Posted by Trotsky

whilst we are at it why not look at Kings Troop and all the Household cermemonial in central London? Doesnt that tie up a battalion+ in strength? Why not have a Household cav capbadged coy of the MPGS for the touristy stuff and save the rest of the money whilst using troops properley at the same time? How much money would be saved by cutting trooping the colour, which, whilst being a spectacular event, is in fact a drain on army (and police) resources better used elsewhere?

It's not just those dedicated to ceremonial duties; whilst in a commitments job I had to identify a Company of Men (& certainly not the Coy(-) we see in HERRICK) to relocate to Braemar for 3 months every summer...I understand that one of the platoons was called "the Pony Platoon" whose sole role was to drag the spoils of the day off the Hill!!! Some of the other jobs were even more menial. I am led to believe that this years commitment has been an utter nightmare to fill......I do not think that it is disloyal to seek an end to this type of tasking....but who has the guts to pull it?

Originally Posted by cupoftea

There we are.

Mothball or sell some, but keep the rest active for Inf support until they retire. Sounds like the death knell for BAOR though.

Doesn't Dorchester effectively prohibit sales of UK stock Challenger 2's?
As has alredy been said, we own them and they are damned effective so there is little to gain by binning them. If we are honest C2 is well advanced of most other MBT's and they are likely to remain effective against pretty much any other armoured vehicle for a long time to come.