Originally Posted by Closet_Jibber

This is great - I've been saying we lost in Basrah for ages and felt like I was the only person with that opinion.

What we need to do now is admit we lost in order to publicly force a change in the way the armed forces operate!

We never lost Basra. We left. Gen Mohan asked us to leave after we re- took Camp Lik.
I was there when he asked. The Iraqi forces wanted to show independent strength.
We just left.
The rest is political fall out from our Iraqi exit strategy.
It really grips my poo. I nearly got the good news several times whilst leaving Basra. We were told to go which was graft in itself.

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk Donk

Having read the book in question I would fully agree with the idea that the headshed need to be held responsible for the Armys failings in Basra and Helmand. Fact of the matter is that the Army is a service that hasn't been achieving its aims. As fashionable and easy as it is to blame everything on politicians Not all that has gone on in theatre has been their fault by a long shot. This book highlights some points that have needed to be made and hopefully the headshed are big enough and professional enough to face facts and adapt. If not, then the Army will remain to be an inefficient, top heavy organisation that's pretty crap at fighting small wars.

I personally came away from the book feeling quite embarrassed about the British Army's conduct in both theatres and it was quite painful at times but you can see why our reputation has taken quite a severe knock.

It wasn't the blokes on the grounds fault though. They're excellent at what they do.

Originally Posted by bigjimdangley

It wasn't the blokes on the grounds fault though. They're excellent at what they do.

i think we're pretty good at killing people but the big picture stuff leaves something to be desired.

BigJim. I believe in what you have just said you have hit the unavoidable truth. We never stayed there to win so we lost.

Don't think I'm having a pop at the lads, I'm not. One of the reasons I'm so bitter about it is because of the amount of my own sweat and blood spilled over there never mind that of those who never came back.

Our politicians committed us to something they never had the bottle to see through to its conclusion. We should never have been sent.

I think it's easier to understand why American soldiers of a previous generation react when anyone says they were defeated in Vietnam. As an earlier poster says they did not lose militarily indeed they inflicted numerous defeats on their enemies but at the end of the day or which ever way you look at it the US and it's allies were defeated in Vietnam.

There is an argument for saying that whilst we were not militarily defeated UK PLC failed in it's objectives in Iraq.

I also fear that in it's desire to get out of Afghanistan and curry political favour at home the present government may have handed a victory to the Taliban that they could never get militarily. It is as if we had told the IRA in 1975 that we would be withdrawing from Ulster in 1980.

But we did win.
The Middle East in particular now has several fledgeling democratic states and Crude Oil is under $40 a barrel isn't it?

Hang on.......

Originally Posted by bigjimdangley

But we did win.
The Middle East in particular now has several fledgeling democratic states and Crude Oil is under $40 a barrel isn't it?

Hang on.......

I'd say that one is still playing out. Libya, Syria, Egypt, Arab spring... Arguably if we (the west) had held our nerve just a little longer our influence may be a little greater.

i'm lucky i'm not reading this drunk because if i was i'd be crying and beating up the wife by now.

maybe we should just pull out of Afghanistan tomorrow and proceed post-haste to Libya where we could smash Gaddafi and just bugger off a wk later saying we'd saved the day and that the rebels were ready govern themselves. maybe leave them a wedding gift of a few $M and some UXO, at least that way we could finish off on a WIN.

Originally Posted by BuggerAll

I'd say that one is still playing out. Libya, Syria, Egypt, Arab spring... Arguably if we (the west) had held our nerve just a little longer our influence may be a little greater.

Aye. But who knows how the rebels will turn out....
The CIA proved that with the Taliban. My enemy's enemy is my friend isn't necessarily true.
Hope it works out for Lybia though-in particular.

[As a side note, I know the general opinion of our Flag, General and Air Officers is fairly low, but in their defence, they know nearly all of the problems we are talking about. If you interrogate them about these, they simply look at you in a sad way, and point out that without their efforts at finance and budget management we'd be even more fucked. They would love to be aloof from the money, and concentrate on moving Fleets, Corps or Air Forces around, leading and driving on their guys and gals. That they can't underlines how seriously they take their jobs.

We have wilfully taken ourselves into a budgetary hole, aided by both sets of Government since 97, and we all need to take a piece of the shit sandwich that is being spread around.]